A couple weeks ago, I sent out an informal survey on race to the emails of many of the Chinese people whose blogs I read. I got nothing in response from anyone (a few “mail delivery failures” was all) until a few days ago when I got a response from a rather unexpected place: Hecaitou.
I hadn’t expected a response from him because the two of us had a bit of a misunderstanding last year after I wrote this post, which he and fellow Chinese author and blogger Wang Xiaofeng took as an accusation that they themselves were racist. We eventually worked it out, but not before he wrote a rather scathing essay condemning me, one that prompted one of my Chinese friends to stop in the middle of reading it, turn to me gravely, and say “This is bad.”
Needless to say, I’m extremely grateful that he took the time to respond to my questions about race again despite all of this. What’s more, I think his responses are quite interesting. I’ve translated my questions and his answers below. For the first time ever, I’m also going to post the original Chinese text, for extra clarity’s sake.
Translation
(My questions are translated below in bold, the quoted answers to each question are Hecaitou’s responses.) 原文点此（汉）
Africans protest in Guangzhou
Your question implies something: will Chinese people have a conflict with black people? Obviously, you also know, the chance of there being a conflict between Chinese people and whites is very small. At the same time, you stressed that it’s immigrants from Africa, not Africa descendants from America, England, France, Germany, or other developed countries. So the question is already quite clear, you’re asking whether Chinese people have any particular attitude towards people of color from undeveloped nations. The question has [thus] already changed from race to an economic, cultural, and political question. What they [Africans] will experience in China isn’t very different from what poor people experience coming to a rich neighborhood, or rural children experience coming to the city.
2) Could you explain for us how we should understand the difference between “race” (种族) and “ethnicity” (民族)? What is the difference between a racial conflict and an ethnic conflict? Is “Han chauvinism” (汉族主义) racism?
Generally, “race” is understood to refer to different types of people: black, white, and yellow. “Ethnicity” is understood as a group that shares common culture, language, and customs. But China is a country where Han people make up an absolute majority, and it is at the same time quite separated from the outside world, so there is not a particularly strong conception of race. Instead, the concept of ethnicity is much more pervasive. In history, states founded by Han people have been defeated twice by ethnic minorities; the first was the Mongols, the second was the Manchus. The Manchus founded the Qing dynasty and ruled for 268 years until the modern China emerged. To overturn the Manchu government, the leader of the Han Sun Yat-sen [Sun Zhongshan] raised distinct slogans for minorities, demanded that Manchus and Mongols leave Han places, and China began to change into a nation-state. However, even though it was Sun Yat-sen who came up with the slogan “the 5-ethnicity republic” meaning that Han, Mongol, Tibetan, Hui, and Manchurian ethnic groups would build a republic together, [they] did not persist in following the path of nationalism.
In China, you can obviously tell from physical characteristics that Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and Han people aren’t part of the same racial group [人种]. In the past two thousand years the mixing of different ethnicities is very obvious, so nearly all Han people also carry a little bit of the blood of other ethnicities. I understand that instances of refusal of employment, marriage, or school entrance on account of differing ethnicities are extremely rare.
3) Sometimes, foreigners in China receive special treatment. At times, it seems foreigners have more rights than Chinese. Lawyer Liu Xiaobo once told me “Chinese law gives all kinds of special privileges to foreigners in China.” This is true, however, foreigners living in China are often cheated and encounter prejudices among the people. How should foreigners understand Chinese people’s attitudes toward foreigners?
1. Tell Chinese people you aren’t rich, you’re a fellow worker. 2. If you’ve been cheated, seek the police, they will be happy to help; in terms of their boring jobs, this would be something fresh.
4) Liu Xiaobo also told me, “Although much prejudice exists in China, there are no laws concerning racial prejudice.” Do you feel there ought to be? What kind of laws should there be?
Chinese people invented a term called “Chinese people” [中华民族], so all ethnicities fall under the term “the Chinese people”; therefore, there is no legal racial difference. Race has never been a problem, but after a law [about racial discrimination] was passed [hypothetically], people would probably suddenly start to be aware of racial differences, and perhaps discrimination would arise as a result.
Lou Jing
If her black father was Denzel Washington, I think the comments would be completely different. Although there are this many negative comments, the reason is she’s being seen as an illegitimate child, and the masses believe her father is poor. Chinese people may not be prejudiced against black people, but their prejudice against poor people is real.
6) There are people who say there is no racism in China, and Chinese don’t differentiate between black and white; they say that people who raise this issue are using foreign standards to judge China. But there are also people that say as China becomes a superpower, the people of the world will use international standards to judge China, not Chinese standards. Are these two “standards” [i.e., Chinese standards for what's "racist" vs. foreign standards] really different? If they’re different, how do you think China should resolve this problem, or does it not need to be resolved?
This isn’t a problem. Chinese people don’t use race as a standard of judgement, they decide themselves if they should show respect or scorn. White people’s North American and European politics, culture, science, and economy are all very developed, but black people’s Africa always seems very backward, so Chinese people show more respect toward whites. At the same time in Asia, Chinese people’s attitudes about Koreans and Japanese are very different from their attitudes towards Vietnamese, Cambodians, and people from Laos. The reason is similar; Japan and Korea are developed, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos aren’t.
If race becomes a problem in China, the proof will be that Chinese people aren’t willing to shake hands with Tiger Woods simply because his skin is a different color. Obviously, this isn’t the case, people fight to be the first to get his autograph. If there is really some international standard, I hope it says: people are all equal, and people aren’t treated differently whether they are rich or poor.
7) If you have anything else to say related to this topic, write it here:
The first time I came in contact with people of another race was when I was 21. At that time, I was in college, and for the first time shook hands with a black student, Mark. I had already received a complete higher education, but after I shook his hand I couldn’t keep myself from secretly looking at my hand — to see if it had become black or not. Reason told me that this kind of thinking is absurd. But because I’d never come in contact with a black person before, my emotions led me to do this baffling thing.
Many years have passed, and I’m happy to say that I no longer look at my hand after shaking hands with black people, because in the intervening years I’ve seen many black people: tall, short, good, and bad. After seeing many black people, as far as I’m concerned, they don’t seem very different, they’re the same as me. It’s just that they happen to be black, as I understand it, it’s because the sun in Africa is too strong.
Africans protesting in Guangzhou
My Thoughts
First off, I want to express my gratitude again to Hecaitou for taking his time to respond. Throughout, he argues that what we might call “racism” is actually more like classism; prejudice against poor people. I’ve heard that argument before, but never expressed more convincingly, and I think he makes a great point. While I remain unconvinced that some Chinese people don’t make judgements based on race, he is absolutely right that in real life people’s behaviors reflect all kinds of prejudices at once. The harsh invective hurled at Lou Jing, for example, contains judgment based on class and also judgment based on cultural mores, not just judgment based on race. Does that negate the existence of judgement based on race? I leave it to you, commenters.
I think Hecaitou is basically right. But I would add that what he’s describing is true for other countries, too. In the United States, where racism is widely acknowledged to be a serious problem, rich white people also line up to get Tiger Woods autograph (or did until recently) but look down on poor and even lower middle class blacks, describing them as “gangsters”, “welfare queens”, etc.
Racism is a distinctly irrational attitude, but it is typically mixed up with and draws its power from other, more “rational” (though hardly more benign) prejudices born out of economic competition, geographical competition, etc. In fact, I imagine that the strangeness we feel when we meet someone who looks different—which Hecaitou described in his story of the first time he met a black person—is probably not enough for racism to thrive somewhere. You need also all those other considerations he described.
So… China certainly does not have the history of racism that America or Australia have. However, it might develop racism if people there associate stuff they already dislike (poverty, rural people) with a certain skin color. There’s no reason to treat China as though it is the United States. But there’s plenty of reason for China to be careful that it doesn’t develop America’s habits. The conditions are there, as they are any relatively cosmopolitan place where race and class and everything else collide.
Hmm.. not exactly spot on, which is unusual for Hecaitou.
Foreigners need to understand that Chinese people are extremely pragmatist. We deal with things they way they are, we call it like we see it. My own parents and relatives can hold absurdly racist stereotypes, and have no problems expressing it to another [Chinese] person, yet at the same time they can make friends with and speak highly of the same race.
Here’s the part that Westerners don’t understand: it is possible for a Chinese person to hold positive and negative stereotypes with no discord. Meaning that there is no real underlying hatred, and no drive to demonize someone based on hatred. Therefore, there is no obstacle for a foreigner to be respected as long as they prove themselves. I believe this is in stark contrast to Westerners, whose opinions remain rooted and cannot “turn on a dime” the way it does amongst Chinese.
For example: the same person could hold that Indians are dirty and greedy, yet also acknowledge that Indians can be quite good at math/computing. Or, the same person could view that Blacks are violent and backwards, but celebrate Obama as an intelligent speaker. There is simply no need to continue a negative stereotype if someone demonstrates otherwise.
However, Hecaitou seems to have glossed over the fact that there IS racial discrimination in China. Classism may be the underlying cause, but it’s clear that people will associate race with class, race with culture, race with ethnicity, etc. and China is not an exception to this. There ARE people in China who will judge someone based on skin color and appearance, just like everywhere else.
“Chinese people don’t use race as a standard of judgement, they decide themselves if they should show respect or scorn.”
Of course they do. Racial stereotypes abound in China; and stereotypes are the antecedents of racism.
“White people’s North American and European politics, culture, science, and economy are all very developed, but black people’s Africa always seems very backward, so Chinese people show more respect toward whites.”
In other words, black people are disrespected because of their skin colour. That’s not racism?
Oh, and that bit about Chinese police being helpful if a foreigner has been cheated – I want to see data.
@ shuaige
“There is simply no need to continue a negative stereotype if someone demonstrates otherwise.”
And yet, despite your Obama example, the ‘look down upon’ attitude of Chinese towards people of darker skin persists. I also seem to remember a lot of unsavoury remarks about a smart, savvy woman called Condoleezza Rice.
Further, you overlook the influence on attitudes that party propaganda has. With the US and China heading for a series of showdowns, Obama will inevitably be subject to increasingly negative comment. And most will toe the line.
“I believe this is in stark contrast to Westerners, whose opinions remain rooted… ”
Really? What about Chinese attitudes towards Japan in particular, and the ‘west’ in general? They don’t seem to be very changeable, even if Chinese people count individuals from those backgrounds as their close friends.
stuart,
I am aware there are people who look down on darker skinned people, I expressed it in my last paragraph. As to negative comments on Obama, I believe that’s really more about politics than race.
Your point about attitudes towards Japan and the West is interesting. I agree there is racism on the surface, but the underlying cause is very different. Racism is not really the main issue here, it is only a means to an end. Anti-Japanese and Anti-Western sentiments are nationalism focal points. As such, racism towards Japan and the West are really more emotional expressions of pride, insecurity and so forth.
For example: the same person might understand that Americans aren’t all lazy and overweight, but will make that generalization regardless. Or, the same person might know that Japanese schools do teach the Nanking massacre, but will claim they don’t to stir up anger. Personal opinion and belief about Japan/West does not come into play since the only goal, for nationalists, is to attack them.
Racism is potentially a big problem for China. If China handles affairs with Africa well, e.g. not leaving an “imperialist” impression among the locals by restricting labor export, charity efforts, join international forces to end local strife among other things, and of course stamping potential racial discriminations, I personally believe that is the best way for China to make its standing in the world. If we help Africa grow in a healthy way, we can grow together (but of course a Chinese government that does the things listed above will be quite different from the current one politically).
But right now, the most threatening prejudice in China is discrimination against migrant workers.
I think Hecaitou has given a pretty good perspective about racism is actually more like about predjudice toward poor people. Although I think relatively speaking that China has treated Africans pretty well compared to the poor migrant workers. I heard of reports of some Nigerans who try to befriend Chinese women so that they can use them for ‘mules’ to bring drugs from other countries.
OTR,
You said there’s no reason to judge China as if it has American or Australian history behind it and added that if they develop personal feelings toward someone and draw conclusions toward someone based on skin color, then it could lead to racist behavior.
But don’t they, though? Hecaitou himself admitted (and Stuart later noted) that people respect whites more because of their comparatively developed economies.
Shuaige,
I think Chinese people’s (and in my experience, not just Chinese but Asian in general) alacrity in using stereotypes doesn’t stem from innocence so much as the fact that there is no stigma toward their usage in Asian nations. Discrimination on the basis of race in America is extremely frowned upon and will draw stares and dirty looks if spoken aloud precisely because everyone is conscious of a thorough racial mixing that is happening in America. This is currently taking place in certain areas of China but is much, much less pervasive than what has already occurred in the US.
Additionally, I’m not sure your comparison about the greedy and dirty Indian who is also good at math really applies considering that there are similar stereotypes in the US and would thus nullify your point of Americans being entrenched in their opinions. Consider the stereotypes of Jews: devious, greedy, conniving, yet intelligent, traditional, and religious. As another example (and I understand this is completely anecdotal and in no way represents the full situation in China), I used to live in Tangshan, in Hebei province and had a good friend from Ghana there. He told me on a number of occasions that most of the cities where he lives are just as developed as Tangshan, but when I related this information to a Chinese friend who told me she didn’t trust him because of his skin color, she refused to believe that it was true. She stated that perhaps the capital city was as developed as Tangshan, but it wasn’t possible for any other city to be so developed (not that Tangshan is particularly developed. It actually kinda sucks.)
I personally think that what Hecaitou describes — respecting whites more because of their developed economies is, just as OTR said, based on classism, but this does not change the fact that it is still racial discrimination. That doesn’t mean Chinese people want to crucify blacks, but drawing conclusions about someone based on skin color is racism no matter how you spin it.
All that being said, though, I agree with wooddoo that the much larger problem is discrimination against migrant workers. I’ve heard reports of migrant workers doing construction jobs and being promised payment at the end of the year, only to be told to go home with no pay right before the spring festival. Do you know anything about this, wooddoo?
Oh those things are rampant. The phenomenon of tao xin (讨薪) is like a common fixture in Chinese society. But I want to stress that in Beijing it is strikingly less of a problem, mainly because the government is worried about any protests that may happen in the street of Beijing, which would immediately draw national and international attention. And from my experience, Beijing’s law enforcement to protect migrant workers’ wages is much more vigorous than other areas in this vast country, thought it still has major flaws and a tragical number of tao xin protests.
Outside of Beijing, it’s another world. The sad stories are heartbreaking. But in most cases it’s not a human rights of political issue; the companies just refuse to pay. But it is the local government’s fault not to enforce the law. In this case, it’s mostly a common form of social injustice plaguing developing countries everywhere.
While I’m not convinced that in China it’s ALL about class and not about race itself, I think his point is still basically true: it’s mostly about Chinese people’s love/hate relationship with their hierarchical kiss-up/kickdown worldview and society: fawn over the people who are above you in the social hierarchy while treating the people below you like dirt, if you bother to think about them at all. Wealth, power, and “culture” are major factors determining status, so from a Chinese perspective Africa is at the bottom of the ladder. Plus they see American movies portraying black people as loud and violent — that was enough to scare my Chinese teachers. It looks to me like Chinese ‘racism’ is mostly an extension of their love of looking down on whoever they can — 排外, etc. In Taibei my boss told me how most buxibans didn’t want to hire black teachers it would hurt their business (parents would be less willing to send their kids). Skin colour may have been the identifying characteristic, but it didn’t seem like it was the primary reason blacks were/are looked down on.
Also, I think his responses to your questions expose a blind spot in typical N.American understandings of “racism.” Much of what gets called racism in the USA isn’t racism at all, it’s discrimination based on some other kind of -ism (sub-culture-ism?) that happens to be associated with a particular visible minority group. But it’s not about their skin colour; it’s rarely actually about their skin colour. And since we (N.Americans) are all overly-determined to demonstrate how we aren’t prejudiced (be it racism, sexism, or ‘homophobia’ – such an abused and worthless term) we overreact and overcompensate in the extreme.
I speak as a black man who has lived in China for 6 years, and is married to a Chinese. I am personally acquainted with HeCaitou, and do not agree with his ideas on this matter. Generally Chinese hold negative stereotypes about blacks. It is true that much of these stereotypes have to do with poverty associated with Africa. However, the attribution of certain characteristics to race is BY DEFINITION racism. Poor Blacks, athletic Blacks, smart Jews, criminal Uighers–these are racist ideas because if a Han Chinese sees a poor, athletic, smart, or criminal Han Chinese, he does not conclude that Han Chinese or Asians as a group are poor, athletic, smart or criminal. Racism is making for connections that aren’t there, while ignoring more logical explanations as to why a certain characteristic may be prominent in a group of people (for example, culture and economic factors in the USA, not raise, explain the proportion of blacks in the NBA, or else the NBA would be full of Africans.)
What HeCaitou and many Chinese are right about in making distinctions between racism in China and in the West is something that in my experience white people often don’t understand. Blacks DONT CARE about bullshit racism like “Black people have better body’s so they are good at sports”, which make Western white people all “holier-than-though” when talking to Chinese. What we care about is INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, the kind that occurs in countries with histories of slavery and segregation. This is the kind of racism that limits one’s access to opportunities. In the US, Obama proves we have come a long way in abolishing institutional racism. But we still have a long way to go, and some have further the go than blacks in my opinion, such as, ironically, Asian-Americans.
Robert’s first paragraph,
Exactly.
Robert’s second paragraph,
Could you explain a bit more how stereotypes of athleticism relates to white people having a “holier-than-thou” attitude? I realize this isn’t the main point, but I just didn’t understand how you drew the connection between the two.
The only way one can understand the Chinese attitude on race and ethnicity is to put things in a historic prospective. For decades, the communists have been indoctrinating schoolchildren that the constant theme in history everywhere is class struggle. But that is not true, at least not for China. It should be quite obvious to anyone with sufficient knowledge in Chinese history that ethnic conflicts were much more frequent and widespread than class issues which only manifested themselves every three hundred years or so. But the constuction on the Great Wall lasted on and off for thousands of years, starting with very first emperor of China (and some would even put it much earlier than that). I doubt there is any symbol to racial segregation that is older, larger, more majesitc, or more charished than the Great wall of China. And the initial confrontations, conflicts and wars were definitely logically and chronologically anterior to the initial wall-like barriers. So this history is old and complicated. It could even be said that the entire Chinese history is a history of ethnic segregation, discriminationa and conflict between “the civilised” and “the barbarians”. Just to name a few memorable incidents from our past “glory”: 犬戎灭周、白登之围、五胡乱华、安史之乱、靖康之耻、崖山之难、扬州三屠、鸦片战争
Whether that history was just or unjust is probably debatable. But I would maintain that it is not comparable to western history, or any western notion of racism. For one thing, we Chinese never operated any slave trade, or establish any overseas colonies. And we are, to a large extent, indigenous to the land that we occupy. We may be held responsible for ancient wrongs commited against some other Asian ethnic groups surrounding our territory. But most of those people are now Chinese ethnic minorities, equal citizens of the People’s Republic. There are more Mongolians in China than in Mongolia, for instance. Anyways, my point is this: Unlike the white man, the Chinese do not owe anything to the “man Fridays”, “Tarzans and Janes” around the world. We do not have any historic debt to them, do not bear any responsibility to them, and do not feel obliged to soulder any “white man’s burden.”
Given this history, the Chinese nationality law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law) is guided strictly by the principle of jus sanguinis, right of blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis). Is that legal principle racist? If you think it is, are you willing to call racists dozens of Old World nation states? Are China, Japan, Korea, Isreal, Germany, Finnland, Iceland, etc all racist?
Another thing to keep in mind is that China is clearly over-populated. If it is not clear to you, it is clear to those who are implementing the one-child policy, for it is the basis of that policy. The government proudly claims a population reduction of 200,000,000 over the last three and half decades, which means 200,000,000 unborn Chinese babies, mostly girls, eliminated by contraception, abortion and even abandonment. Their sacrifice was for the purpose of saving precious room just enough for the survival of their older, more fortunate Chinese brothers and sister, and their future Chinese nephews and nieces. It was thought to be a prudent, responsible, self-sacrificing decision on our part to manage our population growth and our resourse consumption, so that China would not be forced one day to expand into others’ territory, and to repeat the atrocities by the white man.
So far so good. But here is the twist. The bureaucrats in Beijing did not seem to anticipate or to take into consideration the effects of immigration. This heroic, genocidal, self-destructive policy would be completely undone by immigrants who come to our shores to steal from us the benefits of our collective self-sacrifice. And this is precisely what is happening in reality in many big cities in China. The “Tarzans and Janes” (or “barbarians” to put it in a term more familiar to Chinese ears) are sneaking in, or just overstay their visas, from all random cornors of the world, but especially from Africa.
Most westerners would automatically associate racism and xenophobia with irrationality, immorality and injustice. But I would argue that the Chinese sentiment, which many in the west may identify as racism or xenophobia, is the complete opposite of those things. It is rational, moral and just.
Suppose you lived in a crowded house with your big ancient family who built the house, and suppose you were forced to tell your wife to abort your second child because of the limited space. Suppose further that one day you found a bunch of strange hobos from the next town squatting in your garage, stealing your utility, and molesting you daughter. Wouldn’t you pick up your gun to evict them, and to defend your family?
Right. Institutional racism may limit a Uighur Chinese’s opportunities in China, when compared to a Han Chinese. But as foreigners in China, blacks and whites probably face similar obstacles and have similar opportunities. The difference in treatment because of skin color is probably minor in the overall picture.
When black walk on the street it is very common for them to hear people saying “黑鬼” (black devil) around them. I asked for many years to so many chinese girl if they imagine that one day they might have a black boy friend, all of them at a very strong reaction of reject and were so suprise that I even could think something like that… like I was asking if they could accept to have a monkey bf…. no racism ????
How many Chinese parents would be good with their daughter marrying an African man versus a Caucasian man or a Chinese man?
haha, WTF? This was the most blatent straw man argument I have ever read!
“Suppose you lived in a crowded house with your big ancient family who built the house, and suppose you were forced to tell your wife to abort your second child because of the limited space. Suppose further that one day you found a bunch of strange hobos from the next town squatting in your garage, stealing your utility, and molesting you daughter. Wouldn’t you pick up your gun to evict them, and to defend your family?”
Nope, sorry… just because you’re gracious enough to let an individual prove himself to be “one of the good ones” doesn’t mean that it isn’t racist to assume a group of people to be dirty, stupid criminals until proven otherwise. As Stuart points out, racist epithets were thrown at Rice when she said something the Chinese didn’t like (as documented by Liu Xiaobo, in the first writing of his that I noticed) and now the same is happening with Obama (albeit not on too widespread a basis), so it’s hard for me to accept that this is an entirely class-based thing that can be erased by showing success. Sure you can say people are lashing out at whatever they can based on politics, but you know what, when Qin Gang or Jiang Yu trot out their infuriating one-liners, my response isn’t “this stupid chink asshole,” because despite my sometimes over-generalized frustration with the thinking of the people of mainland China, I still reject racism utterly. You can say I’m just telling myself politically-correct lies that Chinese don’t bother with, but I really doubt that many Chinese people would be willing bend over backwards to make excuses for me like they do for themselves if I started throwing comments like that around.
I think you can accept some nuance—like Roadblock and Shuaige have provided in a very thoughtful way—and you can say that nothing is purely classism or purely racism or purely whatever… and still come to the conclusion that something has to be done about a certain prejudice.
The problem with prejudice, beyond that it’s mean, is that it prevents the kinds of solidarity that are needed in order to resolve deep-rooted problems. So, for example, the prejudice against migrant workers in China (which is similar in some ways to common prejudices against immigrant “day laborers” or domestic “hicks” in the U.S.) prevents people from viewing their economy in whole terms, taking in all its costs with all its successes.
Anyway… maybe that was a bit of a saccharine and meaningless point… need more coffee.
Of course there is racism in China as it is a very human trait that can be found in all of us. Racism comes naturally with ignorance, stereotypes and in the case of China it is reinforced by the general lack of exposure to people of other racial backgrounds. However I think one thing sets racism in the west apart from racism in China is that the latter is much less driven by pure hatred. I have not heard of any Chinese supremacist groups out there with an agenda to expel and to terminate the blacks, the Jews etc. as you would see in the west among white supremacist groups.
By the way I don’t get those who consider anti-Japanese folks “racists”. Aren’t most Chinese and the Japanese of the same race?
@ Juchechosunmanse: http://www.hanminzu.com/bbs/index.php
Come on custer, is that it? Hanminzu.com, like many other sites dedicating to the revival of the so-called “Hanfu” and other elements of the Han Chinese culture are not the Chinese version of stormfront.org, KKK, Aryan Nation and neo-Nazis of the west. Granted that these sites are often find themselves swarmed by anti-minority rants, they are not so different from the other online BBS, forums etc. that often attract nationalists of all sorts (and by no means limited to China). You must be aware of some ethnic minority sites such as those Manchu, Mongolian and even ethnic Korean (like Global Arirang) equivalents of Hanminzu.com that are doing pretty much the same thing out there. Are they the same as white-surpremacist organizations like the KKK and Aryan Nation? I don’t think so.
I wasn’t saying they’re the same, just offering a point of comparison.
@ Juche
“By the way I don’t get those who consider anti-Japanese folks “racists”. Aren’t most Chinese and the Japanese of the same race?”
In which case the attitude towards Japanese would be one of extreme prejudice, which is equally misguided. And that attitude, generally speaking, does involve a deep hatred. At least that is what I’ve observed during my own time in China.
“I have not heard of any Chinese supremacist groups out there with an agenda to expel and to terminate the blacks, the Jews etc…”
I think it’s time you re-examined the last half century of CCP policy in Tibet.
stuart,
Historcial grievances between China/Japan, Korea/Japan are nothing new. Of course the kind of irrational anti-Japanese sentiment (or anti-Korean or anti-Chinese sentiment) should not be condoned. Like I said on your blog, the Chinese government should not always harp on what happened some 60 years ago to teach kids to be “Chinese”. That said, some Japanese are certainly not helping (by openly paying tribute to that place called Yasukuni).
What about Tibet? Half a century later most Tibetans still only speak Tibetan. Are there indepedently-verified sources on any systematic Chinese government policy/effort to exterminate the Tibetans?
I understand your deference toward Hecaitou, as he is a popular and well-respected blogger in China. I also understand/somewhat appreciate (but disagree with) the idea of not isolating one stance/posting/idea of a writer in what is an otherwise solid body of work. But, let me take this, from ESWN’s translation of one of Hecaitou’s posts during the original dustup:
“Do I have to like Africans? If I don’t like them, is it a crime? Can’t I think that Africans look like apes? Even the apes aren’t complaining, so why are you complaining? The human race has been progressing for more than 5,000 years, but there continues to be famine in Africa. The warlords there can rob the UN relief food to trade for ammunition. If it is up to me, I would say that they are worse than apes. Famines, wars, ethnic cleansing, child soldiers, AIDS proliferation … even if the apes were to rule the continent, they couldn’t be that bad.”
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200903a.brief.htm
I didn’t and don’t care about the cartoon that appeared on his blog. For me, I read the above and not see it just as racist, but as really vicious, unadorned racism.
His silly analogy about now being able to shake hands with a black person reveal a superficial understanding of racism, IMO. Is that his idea of progress, was he trying to be flip; did he really mean to put forth that as a shining example? Any discourse about Chinese not being able to be racist is the talk of a fool, full stop. There is nothing unique or special about Chinese culture that would prevent people from having racist ideas. In recent years, there seems to be a tendency to nod (if uncomfortably) when that stupid idea surfaces or spouts forth from this or that mouth/orifice.
But, just to be sporting, I am willing to entertain what exactly it is about China that prevents Chinese from being racist. Maybe I’ve got something to learn on the subject.
Additionally, where does he get off speaking for all Chinese people? Can I speak for all black people, or all Americans, or all men? I mean, what could be more absurd that not only laying out blanket statements for such a huge nation, but then making a statement that… the word I am searching for escapes me, but it almost seems like something out of science fiction: people from a planet where they understand race exists but are beyond racism (though not classism) land on earth and hilarity/chaos ensues as the overly race concerned earthlings fail to recognize their alien superiority. Philip Dick or Ursula LeGuin might have had a good time writing about that one!
I really like China, and I liked being black in China, and I spent a good deal of time there. I didn’t find it to be a seething cauldron of racism, I didn’t fear and unlike some other very notable countries, I would not dissuade blacks from going to China. None of that is meant to be a backhanded compliment; I find China to be charming and “lovely”, equal in wonder to all of the many other countries I have visited, and also equal (if not superior) in many respects to my own. So, I say that earnestly just to hopefully qualify myself as not having any axe to grind on this particular topic.
That said, I am certain that racism exists in China, and it’s not just inbound. And to use Hecaitou’s reasoning, I suppose I could say one of the reasons I know it exists (beyond my own experiences and reflections) is because Chinese people told me it did, and in emotional, certain terms. I’ll take the comments of Chinese people talking at their leisure, honestly with someone they know, over someone whose agenda seems to be the voice of authority. It exists, it’s subtle, sometimes visceral and smoldering, and there is no uncertainty about it.
I am trying to tread carefully at this point. I don’t want to get into the position of jumping up and down and yelling “yes they are! Some are racist, they surely are!” But I do want to address this topic, the idea that Chinese can’t be racist, because I hear (actually, read) it more and more in recent years.
Hecaitou and his cartoon, whatever. But unless I (and I don’t see how I could have) missed something about the context in which he wrote what ESWN quoted him as writing, the man is is exhibit A. Worst of all, when I read that, I couldn’t help but remember how people had once written and said the very same about China, in a not so distant past. Perhaps his memory fails him?
Oh, and to the poster who commented that the remarks about Obama and Rice didn’t constitute remarks about race, sorry but they did. I read many of the remarks in the original Chinese and again in English, and there is little “political” about them. Reducing her to a black dog/monkey, there is little political discourse in that.
Joel,
“Much of what gets called racism in the USA isn’t racism at all, it’s discrimination based on some other kind of -ism (sub-culture-ism?) that happens to be associated with a particular visible minority group.”
If this is not racism, what is?
I agree completely with Wooddoo, who said:
But right now, the most threatening prejudice in China is discrimination against migrant workers.
This is some food for thought, as are many of your comments.
@ JG: I agree with you, but the questions were all prewritten and sent out to a bunch of people so I wasn’t going to address anything he said before directly. As far as my thoughts on what he said, I certainly have plenty more to say than what I wrote in the post, but I expected other people would say it for me in the comments. I also wanted this to be a discussion of racial attitudes in China, not just whether or not hecaitou is racist (obviously, it’s an interview with just him, so a little of that is unavoidable.
Plus, I’m trying to avoid turning ChinaGeeks into “the blog that gets traffic by pissing off hecaitou”. It seems sort of cheap.
I agree, though, there’s really no excuse for some of the stuff he said in that old post, particularly the bit you quoted.
Thanks JG.
And you said:
“Additionally, where does he get off speaking for all Chinese people? Can I speak for all black people, or all Americans, or all men?”
Yeah they all do that, by they I mean nearly every single one of the expats and Chinese netizens, speaking for all Chinese people. “The Chinese are/aren’t racists!” is one shining example.
And it’s nice to see Juche here. It’s been a long time since I went to ATimes. I wonder if other people like paper and quark are still there.
Custer this blog is getting increasing attention.
@Juchechosunmanse,
Sure, but it’s a different kind of racism, or in a different way, and I think it’s worth pointing out the difference. Even though the prejudice is often still enacted along racial lines, the primary reason for the prejudice isn’t necessarily race itself.
It seems like a large part of the Chinese prejudice against Africans is similar to their prejudice against rural Chinese: “I can tell by the way this person looks that he’s probably from the countryside/Africa, and most people from the countryside/Africa are ________, therefore this guy is most likely ________, therefore I’m above him and I can treat him like dirt.” (It’s subconscious for most people, of course.) If we want to call that racism, fine, but then we’ll need to start differentiating different types of racism. “He’s black, that means he’s probably from Africa, and Africa is poor, and since poor people are below me, I’m going to treat him bad” is different from “He has black skin, and no matter what is associated with black skin and no matter whether this guys is rich/educated/powerful/whatever, that means he’s lesser than me, just because he’s black.” Still wrong, but different.
@wooddoo: Indeed.
@ Joel: I’m not totally sold on the relevance that difference, to be honest. Isn’t that (your first kind of racism) how the other kind of racism starts? My understanding is that initially, negative European attitudes toward blacks (for example) were based on their relatively primitive societies (from a technological standpoint), but that sort of economically-based prejudice gave way pretty quickly to the old-fashioned “pure” racism.
I’m no expert on that history, of course, just a thought…
From the Hecaitou translation:
“Race has never been a problem, but after a law [about racial discrimination] was passed [hypothetically], people would probably suddenly start to be aware of racial differences, and perhaps discrimination would arise as a result.”
Nobody has called the author on this nonsense yet.
It’s a bit like the Jackie Chan view that basic freedoms will bring chaos to China. Or like saying “If we have a constitution upheld by rule of law people will start demanding their constitutional rights, so best not go there.”
Hecaitou’s argument, if it can be so defined, is that any discussion of racism will serve to initiate a problem that doesn’t exist. Someone needs to remind him that eradicating racism, in common with all other issues, is not best served by denial or the stifling of discourse.
On the point of denial, I believe this is (either culturally or CCP-nurtured) a peculiarly Chinese way of dealing with difficult topics.
On the point of denial, I believe this is (either culturally or CCP-nurtured) a peculiarly Chinese way of dealing with difficult topics.
Denial of or deliberate ignoring the problem in the hope it will go away is typical of conservatism in how it deals with homosexuality, sex and other “uncomfortable” issues. It’s behind the abstinence-only sex ed programs and the opposition to needle exchanges, and is the essence of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy and the general unwillingness of the Japanese public to talk about Japan’s past brutal colonization of Korea. It’s natural for people everywhere, specially in conservative societies or more conservative parts in liberal-leaning countries, to ignore inconvenient topics. It’s dishonest to say it’s uniquely Chinese. And it serves to derail the dialogue by dragging the communists into the conversation.
“It’s dishonest to say it’s uniquely Chinese.”
Which would explain why I didn’t say that. I used the term ‘peculiarly’, meaning that the inclination to deny or sweep issues under the carpet is more prevalent in China than the US (for example).
“And it serves to derail the dialogue by dragging the communists into the conversation.”
You’re the first to mention the ‘C’ people.
My point was that attitudes of denial, or trends away from discourse on racial issues, are very much adopted from CCP-think/rhetoric, which does make them a legitimate part of this discussion.
You’re the first to mention the ‘C’ people.
You mentioned CCP in 35 in the brackets. My reponse was in 36. But I have never had such a weird back-and-forth…
My point was that attitudes of denial, or trends away from discourse on racial issues, are very much adopted from CCP-think/rhetoric, which does make them a legitimate part of this discussion.
This sentence goes against your comment in 35 where in the brackets you said “either… or…” But the comment in 37 shows you think the denial mentality is very much a result of the “or” part.
There’re four possible explanations of this denial mentality:
1) mainly cultural heritage (as I said in 36)
2) mainly CCP influence (as you said in 37)
3) either cultural heritage or CCP influence (as you said in 35)
4) both
So could you clarify your point?
Custer,
That seems like a reasonable line of thought as to the origins of “pure racism,” as it were.
What surprises me is that only one person bothered to say anything about Roadblock’s comparison of Africans in China to hobos squatting in your garage, stealing your utilities, and molesting your daughter. Or the rest of his argument about how China is excluded from the possibility of racial discrimination (ie: racism) since it does not have a recent history of slavery (if 147 years ago is considered recent) and therefore does not share the “white man’s burden.”
I’d also like to note that I completely agree with JG.
There is some level of “making mountain out of a molehill”. Racism, as a word with a long history, has many levels of meaning. To the extent we are talking about racial stereotyping, then certainly many Chinese are guilty of racism. But racism at the institutional level is less a factor than in many other countries, largely because most Chinese people have not had to interact with people of different races on a regular basis. So while they may entertain certain stereotypes in their head, the stereotypes have little effect in real life.
It seems that a lot of foereigners who have lived in China get quite worked up about the racial stereotyping they have encountered. But for most Chinese people, much like Hecaitou, race is a non-issue. It’s probably accurate to say that racism is just as much of an issue as gay marriage is in China. Neither is really a pressing social issue.
“So could you clarify your point?”
No need. It was clear enough, LG.
“Or the rest of his argument about how China is excluded from the possibility of racial discrimination (ie: racism) since it does not have a recent history of slavery”
Yeah, he’s on dodgy ground there. First, China most definitely does have a recent history of slavery, even if they wouldn’t care to call it that. And there were black slaves in southern China (traded by Arabs) centuries before Europeans got going.
Second, and more pertinent to this discussion, I agree that slavery and racism are two separate evils, even if it’s possible for the two to co-exist. It certainly comes as no surprise that any society (or individual) that tolerates slavery might also harbour racist attitudes towards members of an outgroup.
No need. It was clear enough…
No, it wasn’t. I don’t have a problem with you believing whatever the reaons are for the denial mentality. But your comments on the communists’s role in 35 and 37 do exclude each other. If you had said in 35 “both” instead of “either… or…,” we wouldn’t have had this conversation.
It’s not about the content any more. I’m just a stickler for logic in arguments, which makes the “you mention the communist first” all the more weird in both logic and time sequence. Anyway, if you don’t care to explain the discrepancies in your logic, it’s fine, too.
comment 35 by stuart:
I believe this is (either culturally or CCP-nurtured) a peculiarly Chinese way of dealing with difficult topics.
comment 36 by ladygagaftw:
And it serves to derail the dialogue by dragging the communists into the conversation.
comment 37 by stuart:
You’re the first to mention the ‘C’ people.
ROTFLMAO. that made everyone’s day. lady gaga ftw, you shoulda just stopped talking when he jumped through time. p.s. its a pity lost didn’t do the time travel plot in its season six premier.
“I’m just a stickler for logic in arguments”
Such a pedantic nature must be a terrible burden. You’re seeing discrepancies where none exist.
“But your comments on the communists’s role in 35 and 37″
I think upon closer inspection you’ll find reference to communists was your idea.
“If you had said in 35 “both” instead of “either… or…,” we wouldn’t have had this conversation. ”
If wishing made it so.
You’re being too literal in your understanding and use of the English language. Loosen up and feel a whole new range of possibility. For your consideration: an ‘either/or’ approach is not invalidated because I choose to address either the ‘either’ or the ‘or’ in a subsequent comment.
Enlightened? Good!
Stuart, your justification makes no sense to me. Why don’t you just admit you forgot what you wrote? It’s not a big deal.
“Stuart, your justification makes no sense to me.”
Of course it doesn’t.
“Why don’t you just admit you forgot what you wrote?”
For the same reason I won’t admit responsibility for sacking the Summer Palace: I didn’t do it.
Now, back to the topic. This 1988 NYT article is very interesting in the context of all that has happened in China since it was written. Some attitudes, it seems, are difficult to budge:
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/30/world/black-africa-leaves-china-in-quandary.html?pagewanted=1
mac it’s hilarious every time you see this level of desperation. he didn’t forget anything. he’s been this schizophrenic for a long time. oh the more they try.
Stuart cites an incident in 1988 as evidence of Chinese racism.
How many incidents involving White racism can we find since 1988?
mtm,
I don’t think that’s the point. Nice try with the straw man, though.
[...] Hecaitou on Race in China- A great blog post from ChinaGeeks (written by C. Custer) examining the potential for racism within China. I don’t know if I agree with everything that the interviewee (Hecaitou) says, but the post is well written and very nicely framed. A great number of well thought out comments follow [...]
Although I do not completely agree with the survey respondent, I do share his opinion on racism vs classcism. Racism is only an appropriate concept in western cultures due to their prolonged history of slavery and colonization, whereas prejudice against certain race in China is mostly a result of xenophibia and socioeconomic disparity. The latter could be alleviated as more foreigners pour in and mingle with the Chinese population, whereas the latter would be a hard case, because judging people based on class and status is deeply rooted in the traditional, and still in the most part, the contemporary Chinese culture.