Bear with us today, it’s a long road to the question.
A few places around the China blog community have linked Bob Page’s excellent article “Are online relationships between China and the US boiling over? Rednecks against Red Guards?”, which is itself a response to Kaiser Kuo’s excellent lecture at UNL, “Shouting Across the Chasm: Chinese and American Netizens Clash in Cyberspace”. Kuo said of the relationship between American and Chinese netizens:
Each side seems well prepared to believe the worst about the other. But this is the Internet we’re talking about, which many of us believed would bring down barriers and usher in the death of distance, the good times of a global village. Instead, it has made us more fractured and tribal [...] It’s also true within America, where nowadays you only read the political blogs and viewpoints of those who happen to be on your side of the political aisle.
Listen only to those who are shouting the loudest on each side and one could very easily conclude that this is a war between Red Guards and rednecks.
With this thought in mind, we were interested to stumble across this post on popular video gaming blog Kotaku, which concerns the spat between two government bodies: the Ministry of Culture and General Administration of Press and Publication, which Warcraft’s Burning Crusade expansion is caught in the middle of. The original post seems fair enough and — perhaps unsurprisingly — the comments range from intelligent and reasoned to…well, something else entirely. We think they’re interesting, especially when compared and contrasted with the netizen comments about the West in ChinaSMACK posts. Here are some samples:
First, I would like to say I don’t know what China is like. Never been there. I’m SOMEWHAT educated. I go to college, whatever that counts for. Maybe the reason people in China are so into WoW (I can’t even give an estimate of how many are addicted, but I know half of all registered users for WoW are from that region right? I’ll work with that) is that it just plain sucks to live there? Just a blind guess, no offense to anyone, I would LOVE to be terribly mistaken.
I mean, I hear kids are learning multiplication tables when they’re like 4? I was still learning to wipe my own ass when I was 4 (sometimes still can’t do it).
Isn’t that the theory we got going on with Japan? Their social structure is so intense a lot of the men are somewhat.. despondent?
I don’t know. But I’m thinkin’ the issue goes beyond WoW. WoW is just the most attractive, easy, and cheap escape.
Again I swear to God if someone takes offense and calls me a racist uneducated bastard I hope you get mauled by a bear. A bear with swords. And lasers.
Also feel free to tell me what it’s like in mainland China!
eff CHINA AND EFF COMMUNISM! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!
Hey China. Maybe if your country didnt suck so much and your citizens were actually worth something and could make a life for themselves, they wouldn’t need to have fulfilling virtual fake lives in online games.
It’s the most logical thing to do if you are to build up home grown video gaming force. Nothing can rise from the pummelling that WoW would dish to all competition. I bet this has nothing to do with skeletons or violence issues. China is not letting a foreign company drain it’s gaming potential revenue. I bet a chinese rip off of WoW x Final Fantasy is being made right now to be released next year. Biggest smoking nation on Earth? Get ready for the biggest MMO community that Blizzard [the company that makes WoW] could only dream about.
This is just until they cook up a totally castrated version of the game that shows absolutely nothing resembling violence or morbidity and kicks you off after 90 minutes of play with a cheery “Give thanks to the party for wisely regulating your time!” message, presumably.
Looks like Blizzard is having a hard time figuring out who to bribe.
All in all, seems to me they look pretty similar to what Chinese comments about a comparable Western issue might be. Some crazy, some reason, and plenty ignorant. Still, as Kaiser Kuo put it,
I want to make it clear, lest you think that I feel that the burden of understanding or the blame of misunderstanding should fall squarely on Western shoulders that I personally believe there is ample blame to go around.
Indeed. Kaiser Kuo makes some prescriptions for remedying the misunderstanding from the Western side — his audience, like the audience of this blog, was primarily Western — which Bob Page summed up in his article in so concise a format that we’re just going to steal it:
1. Do not be condescending with Chinese on the Internet. They know how to access information and circumvent firewalls, using proxy servers and virtual private networks. Do not assume they are brainwashed drones. It does not support constructive dialogue.
2. Learn what Chinese people actually think when their defenses are down. The conversations taking place when it’s not believed ‘whitey’ is around are decidedly more nuanced. Westerners can read this dialogue, translated into English from Chinese, on “bridge blogs” such as ChinaGeeks, ChinaSmack, ChinaHush, and Danwei. (Another valuable resource: EastWestNorthSouth*.) [*sic, he means EastSouthWestNorth]
3. Read a book of relevant history. China is freighted with historical baggage, and it’s not something Chinese people easily shrug off. To start, Kuo suggests “The Search for Modern China” by Jonathan Spence.
The real purpose of this post, though, is to put the question to you. Do you think it’s important for regular people in China and the West to understand each other? What more can we do to stem the tide of extremism and raise the volume and visibility of some of the more moderate, sensible dialogue that’s happening in both places but rarely heard about outside their borders?
Charles,
appreciate the reference. It’s difficult to argue against better understanding between cultures, isn’t it? In terms of raising visibility of sensible dialogue, what we’re doing here is a great start.
Bob Page
“I hope you get mauled by a bear. A bear with swords. And lasers.”
LoL, love this guy, he’s humble, interested in learning, and has a great sense of humor.
I think it is definitely important for regular people in China and the West to understand each other and the reason is the reason we should all already be aware of: the world is getting smaller. With this comes the gracious opportunity to learn more about each other so we can coexist both peacefully and productively. With this also comes the unavoidable risk for instantly pissing each other off out of ignorance and stupidity. If we desire the former, we must be cautious of the latter.
The second question is harder to answer. Personally, I worry that extremist positions attract attention because it is its nature. Hence, it is by definition impossible to “raise the volume” of more “moderate, sensible” positions because “moderate, sensible” people easily take those for granted. This is a matter of collective subjective perception than it is of fact. I think one thing we can do to ensure that “moderate, sensible” positions prevail is for the “moderate, sensible” people to be vigilant against the extremists, to not be lazy, to not take things for granted, to speak up each and every time against the extremists instead of assuming most people will ignore them. The Western ideal of a marketplace of ideas was that ideas compete with each other. Bad ideas can grow and win if good ideas don’t show up to compete. What was the quote?
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing”?
“Shouting Across the Chasm: Chinese and American Netizens Clash in Cyberspace”.
I think the chasm has been, is and will be narrowing, the “clash in cyberspace” is the evidence. Before, the chasm is so wide that one side even can’t hear what the other side is shouting. Now the chasm is much narrower and we can hear each other. But unfortunately, what Chinese heard is “you ugly commie!” and americans “you ugly imperialist!”, so we began to quarrel. You can call this “deterioration”, but I prefer to call it “improvement”, because I believe when people get tired of quarrelling, we will begin to ask ourselves:”why do they perceive me as ugly? Am I really ugly?” and we will come to the conclusion that there is an urgent need for more communication. Communication will lead to better understanding which will lead to better relationship which will lead to better cooperation which will lead to a better world, sooner or later.
But the real question is, why should we take internet discussion this seriously? Anyone online can say anything for any reason, are we always to be offended? How does one know who is speaking? More than often the inane comments are written by kids who haven’t even completed high school. Should one assume that anyone who writes English on an English website is American? I believe statistics for any major portal would prove that most erroneous. Should one assume that every IP originating from China is a fenqing? It might seem that way in some places, but keep in mind that most Chinese are moderate netizens online to chat and play games, it is only the fenqings that actively seek out places to flame, and thereby have more contact with outsiders on foreign sites.
Kaiser Kuo has mistaken online contact with actual face contact. There is a reason civilized society rests on common courtesy and decorum. I can guarantee the same people who make angry comments online would seldom do so face to face, and for good cause. Giving attention to the juvenile, poorly written insults being thrown around only gives these people a greater platform and exacerbates the tension between China and the West.
Hmm.. not sure why my post was removed.
Oh wait, it hasn’t. Don’t know why it didn’t load for me.
I think many ‘Western Fenqings’ thinks that Chinese culture, people, and government are backwarded when it is not. I recall that I have a heated discussion with a western blogger who is making fun of the term ’saving face’ when they think it is something that Chinese would only do but it is applied in almost every country and culture but there is no terminology for it in western societies. Too bad that the Western countries still have some kind of ‘White Man’s burden’s’ point of view in terms of telling what others they should do or not because they think it is their right.
@ pug_ster: There is a term for that in Western society. It’s “saving face”. I’m not sure what the blogger you were speaking to was talking about, but that’s a Western expression, it doesn’t come from Chinese. Although there are also lots of similar expressions in Chinese, of course…
C. Custer,
Here’s the blog post from a few months ago:
http://markschinablog.blogspot.com/2009/08/saving-face-at-all-costs.html
I know ’saving face’ is a western terminology, and this term was originated from China.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/lose-face.html
Huh, I stand corrected. Thanks, pug_ster. Add that to the short list of English expressions that come from Chinese (sort of). I just always assumed the origin wasn’t Chinese because in Chinese you would generally say “give face” rather than “save face”. I didn’t think that Brits might have borrowed the expression “lose face” from Chinese and then simply inverted in to create “save face”.
Language is fun!
Westerners don’t generally refer ‘face’ concept to themselves but rather honor or prestige, which has similar meanings. Lose face is a concept when someone did something that is dishonorable. Save face is a concept trying where if someone did lose face, he/she trying to redeem his honor by doing something. Give face is different from save face, is allowing someone to redeem his honor.
To give you an example using the 3 terms. Let’s say Person A tries to steal some money from person B and person B found out about it, so person A lose face. Person A wants to save face for his misdeeds and tells person B that he is wants to apologize but only privately, and person B refused. Rather, person B is willing to give face to person A by allowing person A to say sorry but in front of his friends and family.
@ pug_ster: Yes, I understand the difference in English. Is there a Chinese equivalent of “save face”, though?
@pug_ster,
I’ve had that “face” argument on chinaSMACK before. The concept of “face” is definitely not limited to China or Asian countries and has been invoked repeatedly throughout the history of Western culture.
I lived in China until the age of 16, when my family emigrated to the U.S. I’m now 32 and have been living in Beijing for nearly 4 years. Given all of that, I still much prefer life in America. While I generally agree with Kaiser Kuo’s suggestion that everyone should try to get along, I find China and the Chinese to be generally quite disappointing. My views regarding China have nothing to do with any language barrier or ignorance of Chinese history and culture. Contrary to what Mr. Kuo and others appear to suggest, my dislike of China and its values cannot simply be explained away by saying, “If you’d only move to Beijing, learn a bit of Chinese, and take a course or two in Chinese history and culture, you’d love it.” Kuo and others – pug_ster, for example – appear to believe that any and all criticism of China stems from ignorance and/or an unwillingness to give China its due. The painful truth, however, is that the more I learn about China, the less I like it. There was a time (a couple of years after my family left China) that I felt completely alienated and unable to adapt to life in the U.S. At that time, I actually dreamed of returning to China, joining the Party, and becoming an official. I now think of my younger self and shake my head in disbelief – the immature ravings of an angry young man who spoke English poorly and was viewed as a geek by the cool crowd, etc. Now, however, I thank the god(s) that my parents left. While it’s true that I’ve met many Americans who know next to nothing about China, the level of ignorance that the average Chinese demonstrates vis-a-vis the U.S. and the greater West is nothing to gloat about. Chinese society is broken – permanently, I think. In addition, there is something frighteningly pathological about the average Chinese person’s worldview. This being the case, Mr. Kuo’s well-intended suggestion that Americans refrain from condescension when engaging Chinese netizens sounds a bit like asking us to pay respect to a hateful worldview that deserves none. It’s not that I’ve been unwilling to listen. It’s more like I’ve heard enough.
For the life of me, I don’t understand what value can come from sampling comments left at a World of Warcraft website. What did you expect to find – enlightened discourse?
Gan Lu
Please read this article, then you may understand why Chinese worldview is “hateful”. It is hate that gives birth to hate.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100003315/al-qaeda-and-red-china-square-up-for-war-if-only-they-both-could-lose/
@ Gan Lu: It’s not a “World of Warcraft” website, it’s a gaming website, and why, exactly, couldn’t you find enlightened discourse among people who play video games? You sound as ignorant and biased as the society you’re complaining about.
Gan Lu, I don’t see what that Telegraph article signifies. You mean Chinese have never written about America caught in a war in the Middle East that could drain its power and maybe that’s a good thing? I’d be shocked if not, because even Americans have written that!
America and China are too very large nations with many similarities. One does not need to speak a foreign language, one can spend a lifetime traveling and never leave the borders, etc. I laughed when some European complained that Chinese TV is always about China, because American TV is always about America.
Americans and Chinese should learn more about each other, and they will. The risk is that the leaders of China and America do not understand each other. The people will never do more than make stupid comments on the web, and their interaction will eventually lead to greater understanding.
Gan Lu,
I don’t think Chinese Society is broken, but changing. Even when Westerners go to a metropolitan cities like Hong Kong, Shanghai or Beijing they are not prepared for the culture shock when they go there, very much like the initial culture shock when you come to the states (unless you live in a Chinese populated area.) I’m sure there’s a good number of Chinese know little about the West also. But there’s a poll where higher percentage of Chinese think highly of US than Americans think of China. And I think it is due to fact what many Americans think of other people.
The more experience any ethnic group has with whites, the more they start to despise them. This is not a value judgment but a mere statement of fact.
African Americans have a “kill whitey day” as a backlash against KKK elements. “Latinos” have followed suit. In Hawaii it’s called “kill a haole day”. Native Americans despise whites for stealing their land, expropriating their culture and declaring them dead (for the sake of shitty Free Tibet arguments) when they are not. Cantonese and Taishanese who live in America suffered from non-stop racism and demonization in the white media. Young Koreans are fed up with white America’s slandering of all “Asians”. African immigrants to America are shocked at the ignorance and racism of American society. Arabs resent associations to terrorists. Indians face racist abuse at call centers, are called dotheads, and have even been targeted by terrorist groups like the “dotbusters”. Latin America is very anti-American due to America’s interventions (destroying democracy) during the Cold War, and corporate adventurism.
Kaiser Kuo and other ‘East meets West’ types are in for a nasty surprise.
Meanwhile Chinese netizens have interacted much more calmly with other groups such as the Japanese.
@ S: Give me a break.
Fenwai’s are no different from Nazis. Relentlessly promoting “white power” in the form of attacking China’s interests.
They are no different from the cigar-smoking fatcats who destabilize South America and the neocons who fracture and carpet bomb the Islamic world.
The main difference is that the fenwais use a different form of terrorism and thought control against the Chinese. They need to be rounded up and prosecuted for hate crimes.
irony 1 |ˈīrənē; ˈiərnē|
noun ( pl. -nies)
the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect : “Don’t go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony. See note at wit .
• a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result : [with clause ] the irony is that I thought he could help me.
• (also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
Calling a non-Germanic person “Hitler” certainly is irony.
to 8
” You mean Chinese have never written about America caught in a war in the Middle East that could drain its power and maybe that’s a good thing?”
I never said that and I confess that Chinese are not schadenfreude-free. The differrence is that I can figure out the reason for Chinese schadenfreude. I don’t think I need to elaborate, I believe you must have full knowledge of it. But please tell me why do western people hate China so much? Because we are not a democracy and do business with dictators? Then why are you so friendly to those mideast monarchs, let alone doing business? Because we “suppress and kill people of ethnic minorities”? Then why do you keep silent over the fact that numerous people have been killed in India’s northeast? Because China’s human rights record is poor? Then why didn’t those Reportors-Without-Border guys stand up and say:”Chicago doesn’t qualify as a candidate city for Olympic Games because of waterboarding? Yes, we are not open-minded enough to be as tolerant of outside criticism as you think we ought to(who is?), but that’s not the real reason. The real reason is the west has failed to prove to Chinese that your criticism is sincere and you are not using double standards.
“The risk is that the leaders of China and America do not understand each other. ”
I don’t know whether you’re right or not, but even if the leaders really don’t undertand each other, it’s easy to solve this problem, elect a sinophone american as your next president, an american version of “陆克文” will put an end to this situation immediately.
” their interaction will eventually lead to greater understanding”
I really agree with you. China can become a friend whom US can trust, unless you don’t want us to.
But please tell me why do western people hate China so much?
Because China is not white and China is not Christian. That, and the “Communism” thing. Also because they threaten their interests; neocons think the world’s resources are exclusively theirs.
So basically many of these comments turn into the exact same problem as mentioned the article! Which came first the comments or the thread?
One reason I’d say the chasm is narrowing, apart from what mainlander said in his first post, is that more and more people are becoming more and more well versed in the arguments of each side and are consciously choosing to reject moronic, hyperbolic soapbox tirades like S’s, and to a lesser extent, mainlander’s second post.
Gan Lu, I think you need to flesh out some of your points a bit more because you’re also going the same direction as S if you don’t explain why you think Chinese society is broken and its people are pathological.
After living and working in Beijing for three years I now believe that the intense self-absorption and its kin selfishness in many Chinese are at the root of so many damaging (and distasteful) aspects of its culture:
* The condescension Kuo cited toward minority groups and constant reaffirmation of Han superiority
* Unwillingness to wait one’s turn in line or in traffic
* Nationalism that is itself a form of selfishness (on a collective level — WE are important; YOU are not)
* Disregard for people around them as they shout, shout in cellphones in elevators, batter into you on the street and even sneeze on you in the subway.
Just a few examples; the list could be longer. These things are not done to be malicious (I find the Chinese people to be friendly indeed), but in many cases show that they are simply unaware of those around them. It seems only them, their friends, their circle and their family are all they consider; the rest in many ways simply don’t exist, or at least are not worthy of considerate behavior.
* The condescension Kuo cited toward minority groups and constant reaffirmation of Han superiority
* Unwillingness to wait one’s turn in line or in traffic
* Nationalism that is itself a form of selfishness (on a collective level — WE are important; YOU are not)
* Disregard for people around them as they shout, shout in cellphones in elevators, batter into you on the street and even sneeze on you in the subway.
You just described white people to a T, throw in hate gays and Muslims and we have a winner.
[i]You just described white people to a T, throw in hate gays and Muslims and we have a winner.[/i]
First of all, if one behaves that way where I come from you might be eating a knuckle sandwich — nothing cultural about it, just considered intolerably rude behavior to butt in line, sneeze in someone’s face or shout incessantly. Not to mention growling up a big wad of spit and hack it out next to people.
Second, are you implying that Chinese people are tolerant of gays and Muslims?
… nothing cultural about it, just considered intolerably rude behavior to butt in line, sneeze in someone’s face or shout incessantly…
Nothing cultural about it? You just said those things are the ugly part of the Chinese culture. Which one is it? Either it’s intrinsically Chinese to have those bad public manners and inherently your culture to have good manners, or it’s just some Chinese are rude in public and people in your place are polite and it’s not related to culture.
And if it’s intricically Chinese to be rude, how do you explain Taiwan or ethnic Chinese communities in foreign countries? Here on the mainland it’s more about public awareness than cultural heritage, complicated by the fact that the cultural revolution destroyed an entire generation’s cultural background and deprived them of their opportunities for education and their children born in the 1980s and 90s are influenced by their parents’ behaviors. Go ask the senior citizens about how well people behaved in the 1950s and early 60s and you can often hear them say not a single sunflower seed could be found on the train stations (yes people ate sunflowers seeds then). And it’s way better in Beijing now than 10 years ago. Much fewer people spit or sneeze onto others. Many still talk loudly on the phone, though, but that’s not a Chinese patent.
But thank you for not saying the Chinese are, to quote someone from some post some time ago, Oriental Nazis and it’s cultural-related.
“… You just said those things are the ugly part of the Chinese culture. … Either it’s intrinsically Chinese to have those bad public manners and inherently your culture to have good manners, or it’s just some Chinese are rude in public and people in your place are polite and it’s not related to culture …”
Well, I’ve never seen this level of this type of behavior in any other country and I’ve lived in a few across the globe. I didn’t use the word “ugly” — though it is — rather, “selfish”. Whether it’s a part of the much-vaunted Chinese heritage or a more recent development I’m not qualified to say; all I know is that it is all too obvious today.
I can see why folks might need the strong guiding hand of a controlling government. Without it, people would be walking, driving, rushing and parking any place that suits them best with zero regard to the impact on others. Roads would be gridlocked, sidewalks blocked, mobs would rush the subway doors before they’re even open trapping others before they get off, etc., etc.
And the spitting, etc., can only be called uncouth. How such a glorious, ancient culture can result in such backward people is indeed another interesting question. Could the answer be it is the result of a self-absorbed, inconsiderate mindset?
“Could the answer be it is the result of a self-absorbed, inconsiderate mindset?”
It’s the result of poverty and low educational level. That’s all.
Self-absorbed inconsiderate mindset is killing Jews, Muslims, blacks, Polynesians, American Indians, etc just because you think you’re so great.
You can see spitting, zoophilia, father-daughter incest in the American South.
I’d take the occasional rude urban Chinese over that.
“It’s the result of poverty and low educational level. That’s all.”
So I’ll ask again: How did such an ancient, populous country end up so backward?
Because no country has had the luck that ran across thousands of years. There is down time for everyone, caused by famine, civil war, foreign invasion, communists, etc. I find your question very interesting: Are you implying the Chinese should be immortals that are free of all those tragedies that plague mankind?
See Egypt, Iraq, Italy, Greece, India and other ancient civilizations. They’re not your models of a 21-century society. Italy and Greece might qualify, but their economic, educational performances within Europe are lower than say Scandinavia.
You know what? I don’t think you didn’t know all that and the Chinese history for the past two centuries. I’ll leave your question as it is. Never mind me.
It could be argued that scrapping after selfish gain — whether as a warlord or head of a family — without any regard whatever to the “common good” could preclude advancement.
When everyone’s busy running over everyone else, there is little chance of the cooperative effort needed for advancing civilization. The arrogance and self-absorption of saying “we already know everything; we don’t need to learn anything from you” is probably not helpful to long-term development.
As well, if widespread cooperation is not possible due to infighting over selfish gain, then much smaller well-organized and motivated groups can conquer you.
I don’t think the Chinese focus on me, me, my family and my friends is only in recent times.
“How such a glorious, ancient culture can result in such backward people”
As I mentioned, the cultural revolution as the latest blow to the Chinese culture and social progress. You can never overestimate the destruction it brought to this country, psychology and culture wise.
If you want to see the natural progress of a Chinese society, please look at Taiwan where the KMT, in response to the cultural revolution on the mainland, advocated traditional culture, or to some extent see ethnic Chinese communities in foreign countries.
As I said, it’s much better than 10 years ago, or even two years ago, where a kiosk that sold breakfast was always surrounded by people but today they wait in line. And the problem of left-standing is getting awarenss in the subway both in BJ and SH. I tend to think the bad public manners are the results of poverty brought about by the disastrous policies in the 20th century both created by the KMT and then the CCP, but you’re free to think it’s intrinsically Chinese, in which case I guess you have never met a single Chinese person with good manners or you have but they’re not culturally Chinese any more. BTW, me, my friends, family members, colleagues never spit. And we’re not upper class or anything. Plain salarymen and women, so I reject the “such backward people” label.
Ah, I just saw you preemptively delegitimized any mentioning of “me, my family and my friends.” They were examples because I couldn’t speak for anybody else’s manners.
The arrogance and self-absorption of saying “we already know everything; we don’t need to learn anything from you” is probably not helpful to long-term development.
-===============
That was how the Qing Dynasty fell to foreign powers. They were extremely arrogant. And your Chinese friends will agree with me on that one.
But since the May 4th movement, with the disruption of first 30 years of the People’s Republic, the Chinese have started learning from the West. And it’s certainly not stopping now. One small example: Classical Western music. Millions of Chinese kids are learning it. Coincidentally, today’s NYT has an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/arts/music/10long.html?hpw) that said, “In recent years China has developed a reputation for exporting musical virtuosos to the world’s leading music schools and orchestras.”
This is just a small example of how the Chinese are learning from the West. But feel free to dismiss it.
“Ah, I just saw you preemptively delegitimized any mentioning of “me, my family and my friends.” They were examples because I couldn’t speak for anybody else’s manners.”
A good example, Lady Gaga FTW. I wasn’t even responding to you, but you thought I must be because you are all you think about, right? I was talking about the mindset in general.
“…the disastrous policies in the 20th century both created by the KMT and then the CCP.”
Another good example. They were busy scrapping over the spoils while the much smaller nation of Japan ran right over the place.
“So I’ll ask again: How did such an ancient, populous country end up so backward?”
1) the emperors had adopted a close-the-door policy, which led to the demise of China’s dynamism, running water doesn’t go stale;
2) the century of humiliation;
3) the civil war;
4) separation from the west, socialism WITHOUT Chinese characteristics and the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao’s rule.
I think this how China ended up so backward.
“A good example, Lady Gaga FTW. I wasn’t even responding to you, but you thought I must be because you are all you think about, right? I was talking about the mindset in general.”
That’s a faulty conclusion that pretends to be smart. The coincidence that we both mentioned “me, my family and my friends” created an opportunity for your to exploit it (“You see? I just mentioned the Chinese love to say ‘me, my family and my friends,’ and now someone immediately proved me right!”). So I filled the hole before you did.
You need to get your story straight. It’s the problem with your comments from the start. You said the bad manners are part of the Chinese culture, yet when you talked about folks in your place you said there was nothing cultural about it. Then you mentioned you didn’t know if the bad manners were part of the Chinese heritage or the results of recent developments, but you later said the self-absorption didn’t appear only recently and you tried everything you could to bring the mindset of the nation, which is an essential part of the culture, into the argument.
So you do know. You think it’s essentially Chinese to have bad manners. Apart from the fact that you have avoided explaining Taiwan and it’s natural social progress or to some extent Chinese communities overseas, say in Malaysia or Thailand, there’s nothing wrong to believe the Chinese are intrinsically rude and barbaric, because this is not a fresh topic. You see people debating it across the Chinese online community, from one extreme – anticnn – to the other which is kaidi. And you see people debating it ever since the fall of the empire till this day. Case in point: Bai Yang’s classic “The Ugly Chinese.” So it’s no fun doing this any more. But thanks again for saying that the Chinese that are so “backward” are “friendly indeed.” Condescension is always better than hatred. I’m out.
I lived in Thailand for 14 years. The Thais have an unkind name for the Chinese — “jaek,” which carries connotations of loud, boorish behavior. The Chinese teochui clan has indeed thrived in Thailand, and not to the benefit of the Thai people. The subject is widely discussed, with some even saying that Thailand is run by them — and they themselves are essentially a triad.
[...] up by numerous esteemed China blogs including China Herald, Useless Tree, China Digital Times, ChinaGeeks, Danwei, and Peking Duck. Plenty of discussions have happened already around this [...]
@ Joseph: I think the idea that Chinese culture is inherently more selfish than any other is pretty ridiculous. If anything, they’re more collectively focused than most Westerners. The examples of “selfish” behavior you bring up are just cultural differences. Spitting on the ground in public may disgust you, but it isn’t inherently disgusting, that’s just your own cultural biases talking. (After all, it dries quickly, and only gets on the bottom of your shoes. In Chinese cities, I suspect spit is one of the more hygienic things you can step on…)
Line-cutting and pushing (way more common than cutting in my experience) annoys me too, but most Chinese I’ve talked to don’t seem to mind or consider it particularly selfish. And as for traffic, that has nothing to do with Chinese being “more selfish” than anyone else; it has to do with subpar driving schools that don’t do any on-the-road training, not to mention the fact that if you can find the right official, a few hundred RMB will buy you a license even if you’ve never driven a car before in your life. Of course there are selfish drivers who do crazy things and park anywhere they please, but most Chinese drivers aren’t that, they’re just bad drivers. And every country in the world has selfish drivers anyway. Lord knows there’s plenty in the USA.
I think you need to revisit your assumption that these behaviors are selfish just because you don’t like them.
I lived in Thailand for 14 years.
I knew it. You were “expecting” submission from Chinese like you do from the Thais.
Get this through your head- the Thais and Chinese are different like Africans and Caucasoids. We’re not the same race. Don’t expect bows and smiles from the Chinese unless you’ve earned it.
Thais will kiss up to any farang hoping for favors for money. The Chinese will spit in your face if you ever bring that attitude around.
I’d say pack up and go back to Southeast Asia, you don’t seem to have the psychological traits necessary to survive in the harsher Northern parts of Asia.
The Chinese teochui clan has indeed thrived in Thailand, and not to the benefit of the Thai people.
The Chinese brought a functioning economy to most of Southeast Asia. Without the Chinese, Thailand and Southeast Asia would be as irrelevant to the world as they always have been.
neo-Nazis say similar things about Jews and other minorities that are successful in their “nations”, but it’s pure jealousy and 0 fact. The fact that Chinese succeed and Southeast Asians fail is a prototypical story. This holds true even when both groups are in foreign lands- such as the Colonized Nations of America, the Defeated Aborigine Homeland of Australia, White-Occupied Maori-land, and Euro-Canadia.
The Thais have an unkind name for the Chinese — “jaek,” which carries connotations of loud, boorish behavior.
They also have unkind names for pedophiles, “farang, just as the Native Hawaiians do- “haole”.
In no other civilization in the history of the world can you find instances where fathers imprison their daughters in the basement and have seven children with them. This kind of selfishness and callousness towards the experience of others is essentially and fundamentally Western. The idea of “me above everyone else, my fake god second” is the ideology driving Western “civilization” that is destroying the world and humanity as a whole.
The belief that whites are superior and blondes the most superior of all is a fallacy strongly connected with how white Christendom “thinks”- the truth is, blondeness has arisen in several regions of the world. It’s just that the Josef Fritzl like impulses needed to propagate the blonde mutation are an exclusively European phenomenon.
@ s: Don’t kid yourself. What that man did to his daughter was a tragedy, but it’s not somehow fundamentally Western. There’s plenty of child abuse in China, too, including sexual abuse. Nor is it a modern phenomenon in China (where foot-binding traditions made abuse of young girls systemic) or anywhere else.
Child abuse is everywhere, and denying that that kind of cruelty exists in China (or anywhere else) does a terrible disservice to the poor children who are still suffering at the hands of their tormentors.
Sadly those are provinces with many white English teachers in them. The rate for Chinese people, like all other crimes, is much lower than the general European rate and the severity of the crimes is generally less… though still abominable.
A literature review of 23 studies found rates of 3% to 37% for males and 8% to 71% for females, which produced an average of 17% for boys and 28% for girls
C. Custer:
“And as for traffic, that has nothing to do with Chinese being “more selfish” than anyone else …”
Perhaps you’re right, but where I’m from (which is admittedly much less densely populated), people driving cars will instinctively slow down or stop and let people cross the street, even when they are not required to by law. My experience here is cars will speed up and honk their horn.
But the one that really gets me is cars driving in the bike lanes and honking at workers pedalling those little transport three-wheeled bikes. I guess I shouldn’t care … it wasn’t me, after all.
S., I really shouldn’t bother to reply to your rabid, hateful racism, but just so you know, the word farang simply means Westerner. It doesn’t carry any negative intrinsic meaning, but it can be used as an insult depending on context or modifying words. “Farang kee nok” is one example, which translates as “Bird shit Westerner,” a play on white color that is actually just crap in the end.
The polite term for a Chinese person is “Khon Chin”; the term “jaek” connotes a loud, aggressive and money-grubbing Chinese person.
I’m quite sure I know Thailand, its culture and language much better than you do, so you cannot cloak yourself in your “Chinese-ness” ; its irrelevant.
@ Joseph: Try living in a US city. I’ve spent a few years living in China, and a few years living in a US city, and I can tell you that MY worst encounter as a terrified pedestrian was in the US, not China.
I think for China you need to adjust your understanding of what honking means. In the US, people honk rarely, and if they do, it tends to mean “Get the f*ck out of the way!”. But in China, in my experience anyway, people honk much more often and the message seems to generally be “I am here, please be aware of that”. Which makes sense given that so few people follow traffic laws.
@ s: “many white english teachers”…well, that’s convenient, isn’t it? If sex abuse happens outside China, it’s white people’s fault, and if it happens in China, it’s also white people’s fault? Give me a break. There are a billion reasons why that argument is absolutely stupid, but there’s really no reason for me to lay them out. Anyone who would genuinely content sexual abuse happens in China because of white English teachers (who make up a tiny, tiny minority of the population) is either too couched in their views to ever change or utterly and completely moronic.
White people commit crimes at 6-8x the age adjusted rate compared to Chinese Americans, so I would not be surprised if a specific city which was colonized extensively by Asiaphiles would end up seeing 1-10% of its sex crimes committed by foreign males.
people driving cars will instinctively slow down or stop and let people cross the street, even when they are not required to by law. My experience here is cars will speed up and honk their horn
Try going to New York, Taxi drivers will practically park on your face if you don’t clear the streets 1 millisecond after the lights change. To be fair, the pedestrians in New York are incredibly obnoxious and often deserve to be run over.
The main problems with China is that 1) there is not enough regulation 2) the drivers are fairly inexperienced given that they are new to the whole car and driving culture and 3) it’s simply too crowded.
Driving in all developing or recently developed nations is more or less a nightmare. Russia and Malaysia have fatality rates 3x higher than China’s, Iran is 5x higher, etc.
But please continue badmouthing 1/5th of the world’s population based off of your ethnocentric worldview, as if Shanghai or whatever cozy foreign colonized city you live in represents the other 1.3 billion Chinese people.
And no, you can’t be racist towards whites so stop with that already, it’s pathetic.
“And no, you can’t be racist towards whites so stop with that already, it’s pathetic.”
That comment itself is extremely telling.
That I speak the truth!
“But please continue badmouthing 1/5th of the world’s population based off of your ethnocentric worldview”
s, you are the master of irony.
/shrug
Giving him a taste of his own medicine.
China Daily newspaper ‘badmouths’ Chinese:
(from Nov. 13 Metro section)
About 99 percent of Beijingers say they queue for buses and trains, but there are still etiquette problems in the capital, according to the latest data.
An investigation by Renmin University of China and released by the capital civilization office found that the standard of public behavior has improved since the last year’s report.
Li Jianguo, from the capital civilization office, told METRO that 98.95 percent of people surveyed did not push when getting on buses and trains, up from 97.8 per cent last year.
Meanwhile, the number of people who gave up their seats to the aged, pregnant women and disabled on bus was unchanged at 98 percent.
The research found that 98 percent of people were happy to offer help when asked for directions, 1 percentage point higher than last year.
Liao Fei, an associate professor at Renmin University of China and lead researcher of the investigation, said there remained problems with the standard of public behavior in Beijing.
“Most civilians lack the basic etiquette knowledge about public communication,” Liao said.
For example, people who spoke very loudly in public restaurants often did not realize they disturbed others, Liao said.
Joseph,
As your redneck compatriots would say, “love it or leave it!” But please, stay where you are, as I think you must be spreading virulent anti-Americanism with your shining charm.
Yes, how pleasant Americans are, with their orderly transit, Dairy Queens, swimming pools, and golf courses. The Iraqi people know this, as these charming segregated, barbed wire enclosed American cities are forcibly occupying their own country.[1] The thoughtful American siting in their air conditioned luxury in Iraq must think the Iraqis don’t have transportation, electricity, or sanitation because Iraqis are a selfish people. The truth is that Americans are parasites on the Iraqis. Americans are parasites on the Chinese people, the Chinese who do the real productive manufacturing work Americans don’t do. But the parasite Americans benefit from the wealth the U.S. empire steals from China, Iraq, and Third World countries.
(1) http://blogs.nybooks.com/post/234068970/dairy-queen-and-barbed-wire
I been living in American for a long time now and i have to say Kaiser Kuo is right on the money. The older generation thinks of China as “the red communist”; the evil and oppressive country. The present generation thinks China as this cheap, brainwash and copycat of western culture. It is very hard to argue with them without them bring these subjects up; however, i don’t blame them. Everyday you turn the news it is always something negative about China. From history book to mainstream media and their parents, China will always in their eye is a 3rd world country. I understand China have a lot of issues and some of the media in the U.S does show is true but I just hope for the sake of 1.3 billions of people in China do make it to become a developed country without lose it’s true Chinese culture and dignity.
As a previous poster made reference to Bo Yang, I read up a little on him, and found that he passed on last year:
Bo Yang (柏杨), an essayist, novelist, and popular historian famous for his influential book The Ugly Chinaman, passed away from lung disease, the AP reports:
“In many of his essays, Bo told Chinese that their culture — a source of pride for centuries — has many shortcomings. He criticized the Chinese as selfish, unconcerned about other people’s rights and being too willing to tolerate the abuse of power.
He argued fervently that those qualities hurt democracy and favored authoritarian regimes.”
To the two posters above: The US certainly has many shortcomings, some of them incomprehensible to me and many others; the war in Iraq is probably criminal as are the big money folks on Wall Street. You’re right. It’s true. I’ll admit it and fervently hope that our new democratically elected president can provide the leadership to change things. I fear however that millions of Americans are irredeemably beyond reason as they hunker down in their trailers with their Bibles, shotguns and Fox News.
I fail to see what that has to do with a debate on whether inherent individual selfishness (is self-absorption a more palatable term?) has slowed China’s progress, but hey, I agree the US is indeed a mess.
Joeseph
I do not believe at all that it is the Chinese culture that leads to authoritarian what the Chinese do lack is that of individualism. Everyone thinks that if China turn to democracy all of its problem will go away but it won’t. We see it in the west the more Democratic the more people are divided. Chinese people value unity and we will use any mean necessary to hold our country together; just look through our history and culture carefully and you will understand it. China right now are hungry to become rich. There is still about a billions of them are still poor and living in poverty. Once we get to the point of develop country then there will be changes. There is an old saying in China “when there is food and clothing there will be ethics”.
I fail to see what that has to do with a debate on whether inherent individual selfishness (is self-absorption a more palatable term?) has slowed China’s progress
Not nearly as much as it has slowed the rest of the world’s progress. Chinese people simply are not very selfish, and anyone with half a brain and even a meager understanding of China’s history knows this.
China suffered from too much tolerance and too little natural resources. That’s about it.
It is important to be precise, in that the U.S. is not a democracy, but a republic.
“democracy” is a process; by which people are chosen as representatives of a larger constituency, not that much different then in the PRC. In both systems, it
is the question of holding those representives accountable for thier actions and policies,that is the rub. In all honesty, at the present moment in history, the “governance” of China seems to be in more capable hands. The complexity of governing China seems (to me) almost insurmontable, and yet it is being done
and being done rather well. I traveled widely in my younger days, and found most of humanity to be surprisingly generous. The Chinese I have met have been very generous and the ingrained respect for courtesy, scholarship, the work ethic , sense of humor and a highly developed, deeply rooted esthetic sensibility, makes China,and its people, one of the most fascinating manifestations of humanity… and you aint seen nothing yet. Well I have got to go check the cows, clean my shotgun, and get started on the new Sarah Palin book. Y’all have fun.
S., I thought you said it all came from foreigners …
Sexual abuse in minors is ‘prominent’: Expert
By Zhang Yan (China Daily)
2009-11-20
A child protection agency in Beijing said cases of child trafficking, domestic violence and sexual abuse have increased this year.
The Beijing Youth Legal Aid and Research Center spoke to METRO on Wednesday, two days ahead of Universal Children’s Day, that is being celebrated today.
The center is the only legal aid organization for minors in Beijing. This year it received more than 500 calls for help, a 50 percent increase from last year.
Vice-director of the center Zhang Wenjuan said minor’s rights are not being well protected.
“In Beijing, child trafficking is not a serious problem, but domestic and sexual abuses are quite prominent,” she said.
In June 2009, a primary school mathematics teacher molested an 11-year-old student surnamed Zhang in Chaoyang district.
The student complained of pain on the evening of June 12. She informed her parents that her mathematics teacher had sexually assaulted her in the school’s computer room that lunchtime.
The father of the child told Chaoyang police of the incident the following day and the teacher was detained for 14 days.
A police investigation revealed the teacher had previously molested other girls but his victims were too frightened to report anything to the school or their own parents.
“The punishment was too light. He should have been put into jail,” the girl’s father told METRO on Wednesday.
Zhang Wenjuan, the center’s vice-director, said she is talking with the father to consider suing the mathematics teacher.
She added that molestation cases by teachers were a nationwide problem. Zhang said these teachers take advantage of their privileged status to abuse naive minors.
“Children are not mentally or physically mature, and they lack the ability to distinguish right from wrong. This makes them a big target,” she noted.
Zhang advises parents to pay close attention to their children and talk with them about any problems.
“They should learn what is happening in their school and follow the physical and mental condition of their children,” she said.
Although human trafficking is considered rare in Beijing, children in single-parent families and those of migrant workers are still the largest risk groups.
“These parents are often busy making money and can’t pay close enough attention to their children,” Zhang said.
But the vice-director said the real problem lay in the current law to protect underage citizens in China, last revised in 2006.
“According to the current law, abused minors must collect evidence themselves to sue their parents. This is ridiculous,” she said.
The government should establish a system to help minors report problems, and that civil affairs departments should set up anti-domestic violence safe houses for abused children, Zhang said.
Today is the 50th anniversary of the UN’s Universal Children’s Day. In 1959, the assembly made a ‘Declaration of the Rights of the Child’ to protect minors around the world.
“Well I have got to go check the cows, clean my shotgun, and get started on the new Sarah Palin book. Y’all have fun.”
What did she write, a coloring book?
Me, I’m going to settle back with a little lead-tainted water and read this interesting feature in the state-controlled newspaper about the Eco-Cities of China.
A child protection agency in Beijing said cases of child trafficking, domestic violence and sexual abuse have increased this year.
Hm I wonder, does it have to do with the increase in white foreigners? Definitely.
She informed her parents that her mathematics teacher had sexually assaulted her in the school’s computer room that lunchtime.
Why the hell are they hiring white American math teachers now?
Original question was…”is it important for regular people… to understand each other?” and with amazing rapidity turned into name calling and the obligatory inclusion of some form of sexual perversion. I got to tell you Charles
you are a dedicated man. It takes a special kind of endurance to wade through these tall weeds. I have to admit I was really enjoying the begining of the conversation (KAI is always worth reading) K. Kuos lecture was pretty insightful
and I have been following the feedback as I can. I had high hopes; but alass….
In the long run it will be the Artist of China that define the “Chinese Century”. The arts in the west have become stagnant, self-referential, and elitist. As was mentioned above. “when there is food and clothing there will be ethics.” ….and
there will be a tidalwave of creative energy, the likes of which the world has yet
to see. I am an old man and I doubt I will get to see the full flowering, but the
signs are everywhere. Politics, economies, national interest are all important. All
of humanity rides the back of a tiger at this moment… Keep planting catnip.
Congratulations Custer, now you have Joseph who repeatedly dodges legitimate questions and counterarguments from many other bloggers (including you) and insists that the Chinese are culturally (and by association) racially inferior, and s who uses far more outrageous racist words but is essentially his counterpart. This blog should be fun down the road.
“Congratulations Custer, now you have Joseph who repeatedly dodges legitimate questions and counterarguments from many other bloggers (including you) and insists that the Chinese are culturally (and by association) racially inferior…”
Typical misrepresentation. Cultural relativists/apologists will often trot out the race card (if I may mix metaphors) when any commentator dares to ask a question or assert an observation that is less than glowing. That is indeed the easy way out. My original question remains: Has the inherently “selfish” (self- and family obsessed) outlook of the Chinese inhibited the nation’s ability to cooperate for mutual advancement?
The aforementioned Bo Yang, whom I have read after he was cited in this very forum — a Chinese who was imprisoned in Taiwan for 11 years for his open questioning of the KMT — essentially held that view.
Again, the Chinese people I know are admirable in many ways — friendly, intelligent, humorous, hard-working. Many of them have had problems/been victims of what I would characterize a selfish system of guanxi … and their lack of being on the “in crowd.”
Right because Americans and other whites don’t have an incestuous plutocracy controlling nearly all aspects of their economic life, with a strong mind to racial and cultural supremacy.
The Chinese are the least “selfish” of peoples on the planet- they tend to care more about the “greater good” than whites do- much more. They don’t believe in the destruction of other peoples and races (your Free Tibet propaganda aside). They don’t believe in “convert or die”. They don’t steal wantonly like whites in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East. They don’t have an impulse to dominate others for the sake of the ego.
Whites, on the other hand, have always been extremely violent, self-centered and immature when it comes to political action. Whites are less individualistic and also less collectivist at the same time. How is that possible? Well, most whites take their corporate media and church brainwashing as the gospel truth and obey them without question. This is not a sign of effective group action, it only as a vessel through which the individual white expresses his close-mindedness and bigotry through ruthless ladder-climbing. However, on an individual level, they are much more likely to undermine the interests of several others to serve themselves and themselves alone- their families be damned, the Iraqis be damned, the Vietnamese be damned, the Koreans be damned, the slaves be damned, the Injuns be damned…….
The Chinese, on the other hand, are more generous, more kind, and more selfless. It’s a pity you only hang around Westernized Chinese, which are almost as greedy and immoral as the West.
And double damn ego-induced rectal cranial inversion and all who suffer from it.
population problem solved.