[Generally, we attempt to avoid personal narrative on this site as we are not a personal blog. However, in this case, I'm breaking my own rule on the grounds that the discussion of our racism post has involved me personally in a way that might be interesting and relevant to some people.]
Last Sunday, I logged into our website with no greater intent than writing a post of some kind so as to keep to our unofficial one post per day quota. Finding an image I interpreted as racist on several Chinese blogs, I decided to write about the picture and the larger issue behind it. I didn’t intend for it to be a huge issue, nor was it meant for a Chinese audience per se. Our readership here is mostly foreigners, and the idea of lecturing Chinese people about what’s wrong with China doesn’t particularly appeal to me anyway, all I was attempting to do was offer an American perspective on the image and some potential ideas about what it means for China and what problems could arise going forward. I wrote it, and then I went to bed.
I woke up the next morning to a bit of a firestorm. Page views were way up, thanks to links from Danwei, The Peking Duck, Chinayouren, Bendilaowai, Africans in China, and more. What was more surprising was that the original blogs I pulled the images from, Hecaitou and 不许联想, had also both responded to the post, and less than favorably. Hecaitou’s second response, this time in Chinese, was particularly brutal:
Custer isn’t the only example, among Americans there are many that share this feverish urge to proselytize. They know racism is bad, but don’t know that other people already know. So, he’s like the “Hulking Sister” Wang Xiaobo wrote about, who finally learns how to stitch a button and then goes around roaring “Stitch a button!” whenever she meets someone. This kind of person is indeed a good person, but they’re [also] very biased, and can be counted among the ‘good people’ everyone hates [...] What good will updating 100 times do? There will still be no racism in China.
Comments were also pouring in on our site, but the vast majority of them were deeply insightful. One comment, raised again and again on our site and some of the Chinese blogs, was that the translation and understanding of the word “racism” itself might be to blame for the firestorm. To Americans, racism covers a spectrum: at the one end, there are insensitive jokes like the image we posted, on the other, there are Klan members and burning crosses. What didn’t occur to me was that to Chinese people, the English word “racism” is sometimes translated as 种族歧视, and many people equate that term with racial violence and hatred. Given the opportunity to do things over, I would probably replace the word “racism” in the post with “racial insensitivity” or something to that effect.
Anyway, yesterday it struck me that I ought to get in touch with Hecaitou and Wang Xiaofeng (of 不许联想) personally to straighten some things out and to attempt to forge relationships that might facilitate more communication between the English-language and Chinese-language blogging communities in the future. So I sent an email, which both of them have posted on their respective sites. Below, I’ll translate an email exchange between Hecaitou and I, as well as Wang Xiaofeng’s comments on my original letter as posted on his site.
To: Hecaitou and Wang Xiaofeng
From: C. Custer
Subject: I am C. CusterHello,
Although two days ago you had definitely never seen my name before, seeing it today probably gives you a bad feeling. That’s understandable. I’m writing this email to clarify a few things for the two of you:First, the purpose of writing that post was not to say that you are racists, or to criticize the two of you. Actually, I like both of your blogs, and I understand the reason you posted that image was because of the China part, and perhaps you didn’t pay much attention to the rest of the image.
Second, I am not criticizing all Chinese people and saying all Chinese are racists or anything like that. I understand American standards for “racism” are different from Chinese standards; that post was just saying that as there are more and more foreigners living in China, if their standards are different from yours, is it possible this could lead to problems in the future? I never said that China needed to discuss racism according to Western standards, all I was saying was that according to American standards, that picture is racist, and then discussing the reasons for that, etc.
Third, although it seems you do not respect me at all (especially Hecaitou), I still feel there is an upside to this situation. English-language China blogs and Chinese-language blogs rarely interact, possibly because of the linguistic and cultural differences. But personally I feel mutual understanding is extremely important, and without interaction there can be no mutual understanding. I don’t know if the two of you care or not, perhaps you feel Chinese people don’t need to understand other countries…
For now, that’s it. I hope that no matter what, we can have a civilized and productive discussion.
To: C. Custer
From: Hecaitou
Subject: Re: I am C. Custer1. I probably still know what “racism” means in English. Even though [we're] in China, this is an extremely serious accusation. To most Chinese people, “racism” implies the Nazis massacring Jews, the KKK lynching black people, and the brutal suppression of blacks by the white South African government. No one is willing to be connected to this word in any way.
2. I think you’re too sensitive about so-called “racism”, which isn’t necessarily your fault. But in my opinion, the racial sensitivity of Americans has already become a kind of disease, and that this kind of taking great pains [not to be racist] actually protects some deep-rooted racism. When Americans can laugh about skin color, then America will not be a racist nation. Being aware of the existence of taboos only strengthens those things being made taboo. It’s like taking a stern approach to sex, actually it just makes such indulgence more degenerate and more common.
To speak specifically to the question of black people in China, I recall an English expression: “When in Rome, Do as the Romans [do].”
3. Your judgement of what’s “racist” comes from American standards, but the world is not just America. What makes me furious is that China has so many serious problems, and you mention such a fundamentally irrelevant one. Does China have racism? Of course it does, but not against foreigners. If your post had been criticizing the unfair treatment of Tibetans or Uyghurs, I would have nothing to say.
I personally don’t oppose communication, but that doesn’t mean I like being associated with racism, whether it’s intentional or not. Even more, I dislike Americans giving instructions on racism when it isn’t needed at all.
If you feel I haven’t been particularly respectful towards you, I’m very sorry.
Wang Xiaofeng’s comments on my letter (as posted on his site):
Actually, I hadn’t really looked at the content of Custer’s blog; although he said there is racism in China, I feel it’s common and in the previous post I said Chinese people do have a tendency towards racism. So it’s out of the question that I was disrespectful to Custer. I’ve always felt racism is everywhere, the twin of nationalist discrimination. Speaking from the heart, I don’t discriminate against any skin color, I discriminate against idiots.Because Custer wrote to explain, I must let everyone know his meaning and thus I’ve posted his letter here, I hope there will be no further misunderstanding about this.
To: Hecaitou
From: C. Custer
Subject: Re: re: I am C. CusterYou saying you don’t want to be associated with “racism” is understandable. To tell the truth, I now think using “racially insensitive” would be better, as I wasn’t trying to say that this little joke [the image] is the same as things like the KKK.
In regards to the rest of your email, actually I often write posts about the major problems in China, as well as many about the prejudice of the Western media against China, etc. We have many posts, that [the one about racism] was just one of them…
Oh, I also want to ask: Suppose you knew a black person, and that after seeing that picture he felt hurt by it, how would you respond? Telling him he doesn’t understand Chinese culture is probably useless, if he’s hurt by it then he’s hurt by it, so how do you view this situation? (I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m genuinely curious and truly want to better understand your view).
To: C. Custer
From: Hecaitou
Subject: Re: re: re: I am C. CusterSuppose there is such a black person, named White, for example.
White looks at the picture, is deeply upset, and is also my friend. I would tell him this:
About two centuries ago, the Christian Church educational system made children repent/confess every day. Even small children sometimes would confess, saying: “Lord, forgive me, for I have sinned.” He or she doesn’t even understand the meaning of “sinned”, but the Catholic priest or nun would, every day, instill in them the idea that sinning is evil.
In my opinion, this is a kind of pollution. This kind of education infects their pure original nature, making them associate sex with sinning and evil. When they get to the point where they really must strain to restrain these normal urges, that’s when the real sinning starts to happen.
In the same way, Chinese people are like those innocent children when it comes to the problem of racism. They don’t even really know what racism is, much less have experience putting it into practice. ‘This country is this kind of country, this people is this kind of people’; they really don’t have any bad intentions, nor is it directed against a race; in history they’ve not once enslaved people like you.
I only fear that you being upset like this will misguide them. When they’re carefully avoiding bumping into the problem of your race, then there is no doubt that in their hearts they’ve already separated you out as a different group, and knowledge of race consequently will take root in their hearts. If one day there comes a conflict, then these feelings which have been carefully constrained will explode outwards. There is no doubt that then you will be face with true racial prejudice.
So the wise way is to ignore these things, think that you are living in a completely different country, [Chinese people] are completely different from white people, it’s best to live according to the social customs and habits here. If this still cannot satisfy you, you can return the complement: ‘You yellow-haired monkeys.’ I would guess their response would be to laugh rather than to feel hurt. Then, at that time you will understand, they really don’t see you as an outsider.
I think Hecaitou does have a point in some ways, but I reject the idea that letting racial insensitivity out into the open completely disarms its power, and in many of the Chinese comments (including his) I see opinions that are based on a markedly flawed understanding of race relations in the United States. As I mentioned in the last post, that’s probably not their fault (I blame Hollywood), but seeing American P.C. culture as advocating “ignoring” race or attempting to be “colorblind” is a serious misunderstanding, and a dangerous foundation for any opinion.
I never advocated the kind of deep repression that Hecaitou and others refer to in discussing racial issues. In fact, I think that frank discussion and acknowledgement of differences is an extremely important part of interracial communication. Jokes can play a role too; stereotypes can be disarmed through the mockery comedians clever enough to turn them on their heads and expose the ignorance and fear they represent. Yet I maintain that there is a line, that not any joke is a productive joke, and that while ignorance might be a legitimate reason, it’s not going to be an acceptable excuse to anyone who ends up on the wrong end of a racist joke.
The fact is, the image we’re all discussing is racially insensitive. As one commenter on our site pointed out, its presence on a Chinese website offended one African enough to comment there, and plenty of Chinese people in the comments and elsewhere would agree the image isn’t particularly funny or productive.
Laughing about race can lighten the tension and even make connections between peoples, but only when it’s both groups that are laughing. If only one group is laughing while the other sits in uncomfortable silence, all that’s really being constructed is alienation and resentment. Living in China and according with the Chinese way on this may be simply unacceptable for many, and returning the favor doesn’t solve anything as Hecaitou suggests it might. Africans can call Chinese people monkeys, but it has none of the historical connotations that are carried in the image we’re all discussing. Of course Chinese people would laugh, the insult “yellow-haired monkeys” is comparatively meaningless and would sound ridiculous to them. It’s comparing apples and oranges, really.
I understand that the cultural baggage that comes along with the African/ape comparison isn’t something Chinese people created, and that historically, America, Europe, and white people generally are responsible for a legacy of discrimination and brutality against Africans. Many Chinese people may not recognize that image as racially insensitive, and that’s OK. They’re welcome to do as they please, just as Africans are welcome to be deeply offended by the image.
My intention was not, is not, and will never to be to tell anyone what to do. It doesn’t matter whether I’m Chinese, American, African, or whatever, trying to tell a country what to do is a fool’s errand. But I do live here (China), and many of the people who frequent this site do, too. Foreigners, and by extension foreign standards for judging things like racism, exist in China and aren’t about to go away. Chinese people can decide on their own whether or not to care, but they can’t wish away feelings of racial alienation by telling people that they “just don’t understand China.” In fact, such expressions only increase feelings of alienation.
To conclude: let’s take Hecaitou’s theoretical story about his black friend “White” one step further: White calls Hecaitou a yellow monkey for posting the image, Hecaitou laughs, and the two continue to be friends. No major damage is done, but White’s feelings are still hurt. If he saw a similar image somewhere else, his feelings would probably be hurt again, but he’s unlikely to bring it up because he doesn’t need to hear another lecture about how his being offended by something insensitive is actually just a reflection of how he doesn’t understand the place he lives. So, the next time he hears a racist joke or gets told he can’t have that English teaching job because the parents want white faces, he keeps those feelings bottled up instead of talking about them with his Chinese friends. And, as Hecaitou himself said, “If one day there comes a conflict, then these feelings which have been carefully constrained will explode outwards.”
I think everyone can at least agree that nobody wants that.
[Note: For the record, although I don't agree with everything Hecaitou says, I don't consider him or Wang Xiaofeng to be racist. I'm not accusing China as a nation of being racist, nor am I trying to impose my Western values on China, I'm just posting my opinion of the issue on my blog. If you read this post and feel it's an attack on China, Chinese culture, or any of the aforementioned bloggers and commenters, then you've mistaken my meaning.]
On another blog I responded to one Vincent about his conclusion to blame the problem on the commies.
I think the dialogue shouldn’t just stop at communication between Chinese and English blogs; I also suggest people look at Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong and make comparions to see if it’s just culture-related or also politically relevant.
Well argued. And I do think you need to apologise and clarify quite so many times that you did not intend to lecture, judge, offend. It was clear in your original post. I happen to follow both bloggers you mentioned and generally enjoy their wit, humour, and, particularly Wang Xiaofeng’s, irreverence. But I think both of them have overreacted. Having lived abroad for a number of years, I think there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in the West on the issue of racism (or the fight against it to be more accurate). I will give Hecaitou that in his response. But overall, I think it has been an important step that the Western societies decided to take and it has made clear differences, in nearly all cases, for the better. I for one had been a beneficiary, having stayed in Europe and the US as the yellow-skinned foreigner. I wince at Hecaitou’s suggestion that the Chinese society is different and the issue of racism does not exist. It is not different and we need to make a collective effort recognising the problem and do our bits to make it more civilised. (Maybe I should not use the word “more” here). And I do not buy his argument that there are myriads of more important problems so talking about this is nitpicking. That’s the argument frequently used by our government, I am surprised that he falls into the trap.
Racism stems from the feeling of superiority of one’s own race. For example, Obama is called “African American” in America while he is half white, which means majority of whites still can’t accept him as one of their own. The only reason I can think of is that many whites still think their race is something special. Other races don’t seem to have such problem.
In China, a biracial or multiracial person with Chinese blood is always called 华裔 or 华人.
Do Thai people accept Tigerwoods as one of their own? The answer is Yes.
Do Kenyans accept Obama as one of their own? The answer is Yes.
Do blacks consider Obama as one of their own? The answer is Yes.
But why can’t Irish and white people accept Obama as Irish or white???
Only when white people accept Obama is white can they understand how other races feel about racism. Until then, they can only fight that guilt with political correctness.
@ wooddoo: good point, although I’m afraid it’s outside the scope of this site for obvious reasons.
@ Hai X: I’ve never actually apologized to either of them, for that exact reason. I’ve only clarified so many times because I’m hoping some of the fenqing will actually read what I’ve written before calling me stupid.
@ asdfdsf: With regards to Obama, I think things are a lot more complicated than that.
When it comes down to it, Hecaitou’s “no compromise” response is plain regressive.
In building any relationships (personal, business, diplomatic) consideration of differing viewpoints and sensitivities is necessary. Suggesting that “the wise way is to ignore these things” seems very insular in outlook and about 50 years behind the times.
The Chinese have NEVER enslaved people? That’s a good one…
Yes well argued. Although seeing so many clarification/disclaimers in this blog made me laughing and feel irony. Laughing at chinese side, please make no mistake, is it political correctness in Chinese side? Anyway if it avoids unnecessary misunderstanding and promotes constructive talk, then it’s good. And I second Hai X #2 that raising China’s racial sensitivity is generally a good thing to both China and world.
And I’d echo a point in hecaitou’s response which I feel many chinese has: “What makes me furious is that China has so many serious problems, and you mention such a fundamentally irrelevant one. “. With widespread discrimination in current china’s society, (sex discrimination, age discrimination, discrimination against disabled, ill, region, pregnant, even not-so-handsome-looking), racial discrimination seems quite small compared with other discrimination. When asking a chinese if he think discrimination is bad, he’ll probably answer “Yes, but when I have only one job position and 1000 applicant, why can’t I specify some discriminatory guidelines to save my time?”. This isn’t necessarily a good thing, but it’s a reality. China’s development left many untackled areas, and needs time to solve it.
I wonder if Hecaitou has ever been to Hong Kong, a city where Chinese people have generations of experience of other races.
This particular part of China is one of the most racially charged and racially abusive places on the planet, with Filipino and Indonesian domestic workers treated with less respect than family dogs and south Asians routinely discriminated against. There’s no “innocence” of racism in Hong Kong. It’s a (racist) absurdity for Hecaitou to claim that there’s no Chinese discrimination against “foreigners”.
@AndyR
“The Chinese have NEVER enslaved people? That’s a good one…”
Yes, there were slavery in China, but we got rid of it at least 2000 years ago.
But I think you missed Hecaitou’s point. The point he was trying to make is for Americans to lecture the evil of racism is like a little kid who just learnt to button up tries to lecture adults on how to button up…
Dear Mr. Custer:
you are making the situation worse by insisting discussing on such minor problems.
Of course a lot of Chinese do think the Whites are superior to the Colored Folks, and they suffer themselves under a kind of “inferiority complex” when they have to face a White. At the same time they do feel themselves superior to the blacks. There is also Nationalism in China, being proud of her history and culture. But there is no theory like the Racism in China, people feel like what I described above only because they see the Whites are more powerful and the blacks are mostly poor. And it is the root of the so called “racism” in China. It make a substantial difference to the Racism in Western, which would lead to political systems which suppress groups of people according to their races.
The same won’t happen in China, but in Japan there are such tendencies.
So I think you don’t have to waste time educating the Chinese people how to behave themselves according to Western standards. The Chinese won’t look down upon the Africans when the latter get richer and more powerful than they presently are.
I for my part do love the Africans, because I am a Catholic, and for a Catholic, everybody is equally a daughter and a son of our Lord.
[...] 3: There is a new post about this post and further discussion with Hecaitou and Wang Xiaofeng here: “Race and China: Touching a Nerve”. It includes some correspondence between Hecaitou and me, as well as additional analysis. Share [...]
@ Barny Chan
Aha! I knew someone would mention HKers’ discrimination against Southeast Asians and Indians. It is a really big problem.
But as a Chinese from the mainland, usually I feel the mainlanders are the ones most discriminated against in Hong Kong. Sometimes I refer that to my friends as “racism” because I believe some HKers do not believe the mainlanders are the same people as they are.
I felt I was heavily discriminated against when I was in HK this lunar new year, by four-star hotel receptionists, bus drivers and subway clerks. Saleswomen in Armani Exchange stores were nice, though (they were rude to a middle-aged woman also from the mainland, but that was because she was rude herself).
BTW thank you for saying Hong Kong is Chinese. I’m tired of sentences that go “Hong Kong and China.” You seldom see sentences like “New Jersey, the US and Canada are blah blah blah.”
@ just by chance here: Please read my post and try again.
@C Custer:
I read through this new article.
I shrugged. I think with this kind of mentality, you are not on the way to really understanding Chinese. And I don’t feel like going deeper on this discussion.
It won’t go anywhere…
@C Custer:
I read through this new article.
I shrugged. I think with this kind of mentality, you are not on the way to really understanding Chinese. And I don’t feel like going deeper on this discussion.
It won’t go anywhere….
The cartoon comparison has far more connotations than hecaitou will own up to and his inability to recognise this just highlights how superficial his thinking on the matter is.
Until people can learn to self-examine instead of the usual knee-jerk “you hate china” defensive, Chinese society won’t grow (or dare I say evolve?) The fact that China is relatively “open” now and the cartoon is on the world wide web means that while some of the Chinese cultural defenses are relevant, Mainland Chinese should also consider how their actions right or wrong impact on others. This is part of being civilized, rather than giving a long lecture to the person you have upset on why they are being stupid.
Having said that, China isn’t really racist in my opinion and I’m not black so I could never know what this must feel like, some (Africans?) in the threads have trivialized it saying its not offensive though I’d venture to say that those are people who have lived in and sought to understand China. Some have called it ignorance, the Chinese do have an interesting attitude to race, but in the China context (which i think hecaitou was talking about) it certainly isn’t racism and most certainly isn’t hateful.
As an end note, I do applaud the china blogosphere for pushing the boundries, please for the love of god don’t let political correctnesss ruin China like it has many western countries!
[...] Read the original: Race and China: Touching a Nerve | ChinaGeeks [...]
HK is an interesting point. They’re education and development is vastly different from China. The funny thing is Hkers discriminate against people from the mainland just as much as people from Taiwan. I suspect it has something to do with left over colonialism, similar to former African colonies jockeying for social status among the commonwealth.
@Wu
I have to concur with Hai X. The argument that there are many more important problems than discrimination is the argument the government uses when it wants to avoid any and every issue. I would argue that discrimination based on skin tone, race, social status, appearance, etc. are all different faces of the same ugly beast. We are humans, all capable of discussing, contemplating, and compromising over many issues at once. There’s no reason to buy into the idea that we’re all a bunch of simpletons who can only focus on one topic at a time and any more than that will overwhelm our feeble minds.
改了一点，首先表明自己的立场：我是中国政治坐标系（北大版），自由经济芝加哥学派，加政治右倾。
政治立场坐标
0.8
文化立场坐标
1.4
经济立场坐标
1.2
不把自己当成一位公众人物或者政治人物。但我希望以后我有机会选举的政治人物是这样。
关于外国人的议题：限制外国人的进出权，所有国家的外国人，进入中国，必须按照日本对外国人的标准来审核。
对于跨国婚姻：在媒体上不推荐不鼓励，私底网络（例如：香港高登，台湾ptt）下，对嫁给老外的中国女人，增以含洋屌，哈黑屌。哈韩屌，哈倭屌之美誉。
对于经济权，尽量把握。扬爱私民族货，千万不用国有企业货，次之欧美(不要东欧和南欧），学历承认同样。
我是汉人，皮肤也不会比白人黑，不喜欢体味。不喜欢白人喊我们黄种人，这个定义你们自己吞下去，喜欢白肤美女，如果我看到美女去晒日光浴，我会把她骂到暴头，如果我定义:白人=毛人，黄人=滑人（皮肤很滑），黑人=光人(毛少，晒得黑)XDDD。我不喜欢NBA,不喜欢奥巴马和民主党，不喜欢北京人和棒子，我支持共和党和龚小夏。我尊敬宗教，但不包括伊斯兰教。我人在法国读书，不喜欢智力低下没有常识的人。这里的白人垃圾黑人垃圾温州垃圾高干垃圾都很多。
如果 c.custer有兴趣，我们可以skype聊。对了，上次王小峰和和菜头都被我留言骂过。这两个人是懦夫，整天风花雪月，只会捡软的捏。
我的问题是：为什么要一定要喜欢外国人和外人？跟我不一样的人，我第一个反应不能是不喜欢吗？？？而后，如果发现了其人好的地方才喜欢起来的。
对了，你是什么颜色的人？支持共和还是民主派？
Custer, a lot of these comments must be incredibly frustrating to read, aren’t they?
:(
@Josh: In theory what you said is correct, the ideal society is everyone is equal, and as stated in final dream of Marxism, working is everyone’s interst, not the way to earn money. So in theory, or in long-term, I agree with you 100% that all discriminations are ugly beast that we need to get rid of. But (you guessed this word, didn’t you?), but in reality, at any time a society has only limited resource and limited focus. Take this discrimination: to fundamentally tackle it, china needs an independent judicial system, to say the least. The judicial system’s reform is a even bigger daunting job for any society to tackle. And in china, to get to judicial system’s reform, we probably first need political system reform. Without a public consensus throughout the society, none of them is possible. Now how many topics can mainstream of chinese society focus on, at any given time? I came across hecaitou’s reply to a comment: http://www.bendilaowai.com/?p=180#comment-117
His word “Ask the rite question, Pls.” I think he got some point.
Having said that, waking people up so they know there’s problem is also important. I can even imagine, 20 years later, when 1st generation of single-child is reaching their 50, china will have a lot of immigrant from other countries. At that time, the urgency may be opposite. But anyway, this is just random thoughts.
@yue: 你很脑残。
Custer (and others), maybe I am a bit slow, help me out here:
What triggered this discussion about racism in China? Was it
(1) The fact that Hecaitou and Wang Xiaofeng posted the image (which depicts Africans as monkey and Chinese as river crab) without apologizing or at least saying they are offended by the depiction of Africans?
(2) The fact that many, if not most, Chinese commenters on their blogs didn’t express their outrage over the depiction of Africans?
Are we saying the lack of outrage from the Chinese commenters on this blogs indicates that the Chinese are racist or that the Chinese doesn’t consider racism a problem? There is where I have a problem with this discussion: I’d be perfectly happy if we are discussing racism (which of course exists here) in China based on actual experiences of some Africans and blacks in China, or even the 1987 riot in Nanjing, something like that. It would be a lot more convincing to discuss racism in China in those contexts. I guess the difference between China and the US (and the western world at large, which has had much more exposure to racial diversity and racism than China) here is, if you had posted this image on an American/European blog or message board, most people (if not everyone) would be quickly condemning the depiction of Africans? Alright, in case you have no idea what I am saying, my point is, to draw the conclusion that many Chinese are either racist or at least condone/tolerate racism towards Africans based on this ONE stupid image and their reactions is really stupid.
Is it possible that the Chinese readers and commenters got so hung up on the river crab thing that they didn’t pay due attention to the African one? I think it is. I am wondering if we add another line to the image, maybe say depicting the Jewish people as something (anything, not necessarily offensive or prejudiced), would the Jews be overwhelmingly discussing their outrage over the depiction of Africans as monkeys?
Despite what Custer said “I am not trying to impose my western values on China”, Custer you are doing just that, unconsciously perhaps in that you are defining racism (or anything else for that matter) and its implications in the western context and applying them to China. I think it is important for any foreigner (especially those from the west) to understand and realize that everything that you were brought up with, you know those things that you take for granted, your values, your beliefs, your definitions, your systems might not necessarily be shared by other people. To have a real and serious discussion you really have to walk in their shoes and try to see things in their perspective. Of course this also applies to those Chinese going abroad.
Nevertheless, if the goal is to start a discussion of racism in China, you have succeeded. You’ve got a discussion. Congratulations, keep up the good work, I do think we do need more discussions like this one.
Finally, to answer Custer’s question ” Suppose you knew a black person, and that after seeing that picture he felt hurt by it, how would you respond?”: I would tell the black person that I am sorry for his feeling being hurt, I don’t agree with or condone what the image is trying to convey about the Africans. I didn’t create the image, maybe I should have PSed it to remove the African line. I am sorry. But what’s it got to do with China??
Yue,
(Sorry for taking a cheap shot at France), 你这种玩意儿也只能去法国混混。整个儿一神经病。 哪儿凉快哪儿呆着去！
@Pffefer
I think it’s due to the American liberal attitude of being extremely sensitive to race that it’s exploded. I remember back to the Olympics the Spanish team was caught doing the slanty eye gesture and it made a lot of news in the UK and the US. A Chinese American group was going to sue but no other Chinese groups took those steps anywhere else, and in China no one cared.
Couple things:
1. First of all I don’t like anyone speaking on behalf of the “Chinese people”, a grandma from the village of Yunan, a middle-aged government worker in a small city in Heilongjiang, and an educated youth in Shanghai probably all have very different thoughts and reactions about ppl of other races, especially say black people. But I can understand for argument sake, we sometimes have to generalize.
2. It’s funny to me that Hecaitou argues that because “racism” is a foreign concept to “Chinese people”, therefore we should never introduce them to it, we don’t want them to ever be polite and respectful towards other races you know. I agree PC has gone too far in the States(for example, the whole taboo around the usage of “n” word, what if a quarter-black person says it, or 1/8 black, or 1/16, where do you draw the line), but it doesn’t mean being respectful towards other people’s feelings are not important. It’s obvious that China doesn’t have as serious a racial problem as America does given over 90% are Han (or we just pretend it’s a happy family and censor/ignore the cries of ethnic minorities), but it doesn’t mean the “Chinese people” are not discriminatory against blacks. Ask any Chinese parents that whether they want their kids to marry a Chinese, a black, or a white person if everything else is equal, I bet your balls they’d rank Chinese first, white second(sometimes even first), and black as a last choice. It’s true there’s no law banning inter-racial marriage, but it’s probably because the Chinese don’t see a need for it. I remember back in the 80s African exchange students in China had a hella hard time dating Chinese girls, tell me that’s not racism.
3. “Chinese people” are the queen of over-sensitivity, anything could be seen as an attack on the “Chinese culture” and the “Chinese people”. Remember the Citroen ad depicting Mao? That caused a firestorm in China. The “feiqing”s would not buy the explanation that it’s humor. Now that the table is turned, they are calling blacks apes and all of a sudden it’s just “for fun” and blacks should chill and take it as a joke? Talking about double-standards.
4. C. Custer: you have more disclaimers than a rollercoaster ride at a traveling carnival, come on dude, relax, no one is accusing you of calling the entire China a racist nation, you are pretty PC yourself, haha. Anyway, good job about the post. I had the exact feelings when I first read it on Wang Xiaofeng’s blog.
[...] (ChinaGeeks) [...]
@ asdfdsf, regarding white people thinking their race is special
The phenomenon you describe has a technical term in English but I can’t think of it at the moment. What you say has some truth in it but I don’t think Obama is an example of this. Rather it’s monumental that someone that is even partially black is president so people of course will play this up. If the US had had many half-black, half-white presidents people might talk about it differently.
I do think there is a parallel in Chinese culture. The other day I referred to a half-white, half-Chinese aquaintance of mine as a 华人. The two Chinese I was with immediately corrected me: if you are half-white you cannot be a 华人. That was just the opinion of two Chinese people though, I don’t know what the majority view is.
@asdfdsf
Also, you shouldn’t forget the prejudice and resentment that some South Koreans that were raised or lived abroad (or, more significantly, are half-Korean, half-something else) receive when returning to South Korea (even when actively attempting to “seek their roots”). Clearly this phenomenon isn’t limited to white people.
In no way do I fully agree with Hecaitou but at the same time, why is it that people are focusing so much on racism in China against blacks? Why not Chinese on Chinese racism, which happens to be more prevalent? There are still Hong Kong Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese, and Mainland Chinese who hate each other. If anything, that should receive first priority.
I don’t deny that prejudice and discrimination against blacks do exist in China but what about black on Chinese racism? I’ve lived in California for much of my life(20+ years) and I can tell you that I’ve witnessed a lot of black on Asian discrimination, even from my own experiences. In no way am I trying to say that every black person is a mindless thug but a fair amount of them are(I won’t go into percentages but it’s been estimated that at least 1/4 or 1/5 young black males between the age of 18-29 are in jail.), which is the unfortunate part. Does this sound like a generalization to you? Well, maybe it is. But I should point out that people commenting here have also made broad generalizations of Chinese people as well, so it’s only fair to give tit-for-tat.
Also, there’s discrimination and violence from blacks to Chinese in America, most of which goes under-reported or pushed under the rug.
http://gothamist.com/2008/04/06/13_year_old.php
http://www.tabunka.org/newsletter/black_racism.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2003/01/14/eguillermo.DTL
As you can see, even popular black celebrities like Shaq can openly make fun of Chinese people and get off scot-free. This is not even considering the fact that it’s a slap in the face to a lot of young male Chinese who idolize him and want to play basketball just like him.
I agree that the topic of prejudice and racism is worth examining but at the same time, it would be unfair and hypocritical to see the racism from only one angle(Chinese hating black). An issue like racism is a two-way street. The real double standard is to put Chinese on the spot as being racist and discriminatory while black individuals are only innocent, misunderstood angels who can never do any wrong or be racist in any way.
Kevin
@ asdfdsf
“Yes, there were slavery in China, but we got rid of it at least 2000 years ago.”
Actually, slavery was common enough to be commented on by travellers up to the late 19th century, and private slavery wasn’t formally abolished until 1910.
Or so I am told. But I can stand being corrected, if you’d like to do so.
@wooddoo
You’re right to identify the routine disdain that HKers direct at those from the mainland, but this has a different motivation than the treatment of south and south-east Asians.
The generally rude treatment that mainlanders receive is no different than the treatment that economically poor HKers receive. I don’t think that there’s anywhere else in the world where people so obsessively rate others according to their personal wealth, and the default position is to treat anybody who is poorer than you with disdain. Until recently mainlanders were always perceived as poorer than HKers and were treated accordingly. However, if you check into the Peninsula dressed in Prada you’ll be treated with the same degree of respect as a local. It’s not that simple if you’re of a different race.
Say you’re an African American seconded to HK by a bank – regardless of how wealthy you are you’ll find life difficult. From discovering that nobody will rent an apartment to you (overseas companies have to arrange corporate leases for employees who are neither Chinese or white in appearance) to finding that people will not sit next to you on an MTR train you’ll be made constantly aware of your race in a way that would be unthinkable in NY or London.
It’s a nonsense to suggest that racism isn’t a factor in China.
@Chris Hearne: half-white, half-chinese? that really depends. 费翔 and 杜德伟 are both half-white, half-chinese and famous enough in china. May be next time you can ask your two chinese friends about them.
Regarding the original image, I don’t necessarily think it’s meant to be racist because I think the insult that African people are ‘gorillas’ can be understood as a culturally specific slur. The image is offensive to many in the West because of the history, dialogue and understanding of slavery and racism in the West.
I think the example of the Spanish Basketball team taking the picture of themselves pulling back their eyes demonstrates the differences in understanding of what constitutes as racism. Many reports suggest that Chinese people in China did not find this offensive whereas there was a different perspective in America/Canada etc.
I am NOT saying racism is not relevant in China. I am also NOT saying that Chinese people can’t be racists just because they haven’t experienced it in a way similar to the west, yet. I think it’s highly naive to think that racism does not exist in any country. I just think that in this particular instance because of the lack of knowledge about culturally specific understandings of racial slurs, the image can be attributed to more bad taste/ignorance than racism. Again, not saying racism is not an important issue but in this case, I don’t think a judgement of racist attitudes necessarily applies.
I think the knee-jerk reactions of SOME chinese people against criticisms is incredibly frustrating but trying to judge others according to one’s own cultural understanding can also distort reality.
For further consideration:
I would like people to consider the image of America in the picture which show a ‘black’ person running, I wonder what people make of that in the context of the image?
To make clear one of my lines: “I don’t think a judgment of racist attitudes necessarily applies”
I think a judgement of racist attitudes BEHIND THE IMAGE in question does not necessarily apply. Whereas people’s experiences of being refused hotel rooms might be a better indicator of racism.
@asdfdsf
“Yes, there were slavery in China, but we got rid of it at least 2000 years ago”…another good one.
And no, I didn’t miss the point, the idea that “the West” can’t lecture China today because of the dirt deeds of its past is a very common argument by Chinese, heard it enough to easily identify it (and consequently ignore it for its stupidity.)
But who is “lecturing” the Chinese in this post? I think C. Custer has made it abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that he is not trying to tell the Chinese how to do anything. Nor does C. Custer portray himself as speaking on the behalf of the American people, so how can America be lecturing the Chinese? Like many respondents, either your reading comprehension blows or you have an over-active imagination.
@Macanluadoir-exactly and I think you’ll be waiting a long time for his “proof” otherwise
@Macanlaudoir and AndyR
And some Chinese will also admit to you that slavery in China still exists today in the form of sex workers.
@alice
I agree with what you say, but I am a bit confused as to what you mean by “culturally specific slur.” If you’re saying that the American definition of racism only applies in America, I believe that’s easily disproven by a poster’s Swedish boyfriend saying otherwise, as well as the African who posted on Hecaitou’s blog, and me asking a few of my friends. I think in Africa especially, since (western, anyway) Africa has had so much influence from American hip-hop culture, it’d be easy to say they would also be sensitive to the image, especially any African who’s been to China.
im a hk secondary school teacher looking for issues for discussions and “randomly” jumped into this site and this post and now feel the urge to express some of my opinions
(forgive me for my poor english and i might not have time respond again if any…)
1)
its perfectly normal to have a general idea of a race or stereotype as in psychology ppl tend to save mental processing through generalization
having this in mind, then, if one is differnt from the person next to him/her, then inevitably this difference must be enlarged to differences between races
what the chinese bloggers mentioned is that the awareness of race/racism and the term itself is actually reinforcing the differences between races, and thats why one of the writer suggested that (and in my elaboration) to wipe out racism at all is to “know no race” (as in the church kid example though i think somewhat not very proper in my religious sense), which is impossible
a difference, by definition is a comparison. he is taller, she is thinner etc etc shows a “superiority” in certain direction and dimension. knowing one cannot be superior in all sense is then more important (as opposed to racism which in my knowledge means a race is more superior in all directions)
as an economics teacher i always tell my student that in a society, becoz of the scarcity, competition arises and all kinds of competitions are discriminatory in nature, so in some sense theres no use for me to whine about not being able to buy a ferrari since i am “being discriminated as not having $1m”, or simply the true and sad fact that i am poor or not rich enough
no offence, in a scenario where im given two applicants, a white and a black, and given two jobs, a clerk and a miner, i would instantly have in mind an initial decision which most if not all of you are having also. this simply stems from the idea that a white is probably more superior in education and so more excel in paperwork, and a black in physical abilities and so the labor. but this may turn out that the white is a 6 feet built-up muscle while the black got his phd from oxford. then if i employ the white as a miner and the black as a clerk, am i being a racist? in the same way, without knowing the latter information, am i a racist becoz of my initial decision?
so in a society, if i couldnt get a job in us becoz im a chinese, this doesnt necesaarily mean im a victim of racism in us, and concluding all kinds of “results from competition” to race prejudice is irresponsible.
i myself have a lot of foreign frds. once i showed my flat (im living with my parents) to a female frd from uk and the next day my mom told me not to get too close to her as she is casual (in sex she meant). racism? my mom is an educated chinese born in indonesia but throughout her life she hardly ever has any blonde frds, so she can only estimate the character of my blonde frd with the information she had, be it from bks, news, movies. i think if im blaming my mom a racist then is simply ignorant
2)
race, be it yellow or white or black, chinese or american or african, represents sth more than skin color and outlook, as it also represents a (general) way of life, social values, habbits
in HK one may feel that racial discrimination seems everywhere
just like the case in china, one must investigate deeper and just like pffefer’s pt: “walk in their shoes and try to see things in their perspective”
hk is a multi-national and multi-cutural place. but we hongkees manage to develop our own way of life, social values and habbits
we respect other values/cultures, we see the differences, but this doesnt mean we have to like them. and no one should force us to like them too.
we do not just “discriminate” fillipinos/indos or taiwanese or mainlanders, and we usually dont treat ppl bad becoz of race
we see hongkees treating domestic helpers badly, but we also see news about domestic helpers physically abusing babies, stealing and committing crime. afterall it is the family that has to live with the helper and taking all the risk, so i dont think i have much ground to lecture someone on how to treat your helper within legal limitation and most hongkees are civilized enough to know the moral saying what goes around comes around
so in hk, becoz we are given more chances to confront/welcome foreign “things”, and we are willing express ourselves explicitly, doesnt make us racists.
i’m sorry if i offended anyone and not being able to clearly state my point as i have lessons shortly but i do hope ppl from different world different cultures not to “judge” ppl by standing on their “moral high grounds” and try to understand the big picture behind
and only by more understanding can we solve racism
@shing, thanks for doing so much to validate my earlier comments regarding the racially charged foolishness of Hong Kong.
Wow, this is great– two of the most complex topics in modern history: race relations and mapping China’s world views, all together on one blog and with excellent Chinese translation facilitating cross-cultural debate. I love it.
My point goes to defining racism.
We must distinguish the different forms of racism which are currently being debated. Here are the categories I can think of– please add on. They are listed from “minor” to “major”.
Prejuidicial thoughts: thoughts and attitudes that express a preference or opinion that one race is superior to another
Social Racism: thoughts and attitudes about a person’s skin color which lead to ACTIONS to exclude or disadvantage people in interpersonal/social settings
Latent Institutional Racism: thoughts and attitudes about a person’s skin color which lead to ACTIONS which are punishable offenses under Gov or Law, but in PRACTICE carry on with the knowledge of Gov or Law.
Institutional Racism: thoughts and attitudes based on person’s skin color which lead to ACTIONS which are proactively perpetrated by Government or Law and/or tacitly protected from punishment.
Those are the four that seem helpful.
A key caveat in all this is that RACISM requires an ACTION which encourages one of the above types of actions in SOCIETY.
Power also comes into play– a black guy in the USA will have a hard time getting hired to be Santa, but there might be a french or english school in China willing to employ him bc he is a native speaker. Or, to spin it a different way– a black guy in the USA might be let into a dance club bc people have fear he’s a gangster BUT he might be hired by a Chinese company bc he makes them more foreign. I talked to a very prejuidiced Chinese HR person who said they would rather hire a black guy in China bc they are “on average” more likely to be educated or experienced vs. the multittude of half-educated and inexperienced whites. Different type of attitudes are everywhere, but it’s different if this person is a hiring manager vs. a random blogger. This is the effect of Power.
These aren’t perfect examples, but I just think there are some interesting and sharp contrasts. Trying to reach a better discussion with these examples, not really trying to create grand theory.
That’s my two fen,
FT
actually all the discussions stemmed from the picture which should be sarcastic in nature
the chinese commenters actually put their focus on the part that chinese turned into river crabs rather than the african issue
imho, raising concerns on racism out of the pic makes perfect sense
but linking this and the chinese commenters not awaring the african issue and then to racism in china is a much weaker link
also the way we see race and racism stems from different cultures and social values.
and by casually putting one’s value/interpretation over another’s, isnt this racism?
shing: “and by casually putting one’s value/interpretation over another’s, isnt this racism?”
It might be, it might not be. It depends on the circumstances.
What is unambiguously racist is imagining that skin color, rather than upbringing, in any way leads to predetermined behaviour or values. Your earlier comment that “race, be it yellow or white or black, chinese or american or african, represents sth more than skin color and outlook, as it also represents a (general) way of life, social values, habbits” falls into this category.
also i think its unfair to attribute ppl’s reaction to “new/strange things” to racism
and in an economic sense, new means risky
abt the getting apartment thing in hk, its partially true
take my blonde frd as example, her first apartment was rented from a chinese landlord who knew no english. her apartment now is through the agency. she had a relatively hard time going through the first one. the fact is simple: without enough information the chinese landlord felt risky doing business with the blonde, and through the agency, where information abt the blonde (job certificate etc) is provided, business is obviously less risky
this has nth to do with genuine hostility to race
and the hotel thing.
if by welcoming poorly dressed ppl into the hotel can raise revenue, why not then?
and let’s not forget the majority of hotel rooms are rented to “foreigners”, not hongkees, and it makes no sense putting away potential customers
@ Linda, I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but this particular post, and the racism discussion in general, isn’t really about “understanding Chinese”, at least not for me.
As a bunch of people have said, including Hecaitou in his most recent email, which I may yet post, China is a big country, there are 1.6 billion Chinese people, the idea that anyone — even Chinese people — understand Chinese is ridiculous.
shing: “also i think its unfair to attribute ppl’s reaction to “new/strange things” to racism”
But there’s nothing “new/strange” about blonde haired gweilos or south/south-east Asians in Hong Kong. The perception of “newness”, “strangeness”, “foreignness” is coming from your own prejudice. There are many Indian families in HK whose roots in the city go back way further than the majority of Chinese (you’ve already revealed that your own mother is a relatively recent arrival from Indonesia), but that, along with fluency in Cantonese, doesn’t protect them from the casually muttered racial abuse they receive on a daily basis along with the never ending saga of being stopped and forced to produce their ID cards to the police.
Your comments here reveal an awful lot about the prevailing attitudes of the majority towards those of other races in HK. In particular, your statement regarding domestic workers that “it is the family that has to live with the helper and taking all the risk” shows a startling lack of empathy (another symptom of racism) towards those that seem foreign to you. How can you possibly imagine that the risk only applies to the HK family? Filipinos and Indonesian domestic workers are abused and beaten on a daily basis, and, unlike their employers, they have very little recourse to the law.
@barny
oh no that’s not wht i meant
what i wanted to say is that when ppl talk about a race it represents a complex set of values
lets say i’ve never met a blonde in my whole life nor have i had any information about that
how would i react when i see one?
maybe i’ll be afraid, maybe i’ll be friendly
but if i’m given prior information, its human nature that i might have treated her according to the given information
or in another situation i do business with a blonde and she cheated, and then i do business again with another blonde who also cheated me
you can come up with the conclusion that i’m dumb but to me my information (or experience in this case) tells me not to do business with blonde
so my pt is that if someone is being treated differently and in an offensive way and is sure this is race-targeted, this doesnt mean theres a case of racism, as my interpretation of racism is the hostile attitude towards race after a certain degree of mutual understanding is established
shing: “that’s not wht i meant what i wanted to say is that when ppl talk about a race it represents a complex set of values”
When people talk about “a race” as if it has inherent values of behaviour then it’s the very definition of racism. There’s nothing complex about this other than the labyrinthine unwillingness to accept the label.
“lets say i’ve never met a blonde in my whole life…if i’m given prior information, its human nature that i might have treated her according to the given information”
And, if you live in a society that like Hong Kong has deeply rooted tendencies towards racist stereotyping (both from a Brit colonialist and xenophobic Cantonese perspective), in all likelihood you’ll be treating someone unfairly. The potential lies within all of us to shake off the shackles of lazy and malicious received wisdom. Without this, nothing changes.
“my pt is that if someone is being treated differently and in an offensive way and is sure this is race-targeted, this doesnt mean theres a case of racism, as my interpretation of racism is the hostile attitude towards race after a certain degree of mutual understanding is established”
There are two very straightforward and easily understandable definitions of racism: firstly, the belief that there are definable characteristics, other than the physical, that apply to a specific race; secondly, discrimination or antagonism towards other based on their race. But, even allowing for your definition, how do you explain the hostile attitude of the Chinese majority in HK to south and south-east Asians without accepting it as a clear case of cultural racism?
correction:
doesnt necessarily mean
well barny i myself do feel a bit that youre “hostile” towards what you perceived as average hongkee attitudes
maybe im not clear enough, but im stating a possibility of causes other than racism
abt domestic helpers, i’ve stated that i’ve read news about the bad things on both sides, i’ve talked to sisters in church who are domestic helpers and laernt a bit their difficult life back home, and i’ve also known families who are victims of stealth or whose sons/daughters being abused
abt being treated like dogs, frankly speaking is a common phenomena btw employer and employee, go ask the working class and i bet 90% responded that the boss treated them like dogs with over-time/welfare cuts/salary cuts etc, needless to say their attitudes. its a character of hk. so i dont think this is only becoz they are filipino they have to be treated like dogs.
and pls dont jump to conclusions abt a person’s character such as lack of empathy and such and such. i didnt say the risk thing out of being inhuman. if you have read the news today then you’d know. a domestic helper who knows her contract is ended fed the family’s baby with diluted chlorine water. that’s the risk im talking and thats the risk my boss (principal) wont have to get if my boss fired me. but this risk thing as in any civilized citizen should know doesnt give the right to abuse the helper also, so thats why i stated that moral saying. and yes it is true that a lot of abuse goes unreported and undiscovered and i think it goes both ways
have you been checked by the police? i have. the truth is that every police has a certain “quota” to meet and sometimes they have specific target groups irrelevant of local/foreign e.g. teenagers in triad gangs controlled area. also it is quite understandable: a hongkee looking person has a lower chance that he/she not being able to produce a valid id
i am not denying occurence of racism, im just trying to point out that sometimes things arnt the way they look and things are improving
oh no sorry barny im slow im always responding a post slower
im not very gd with english and i think this is also a difference in language
its like in chinese, we need a label to address non-chinese, and in hk we have the term gweilo, and the term itself has some “historical value” and 90% of my gweilo frd felt nth offensive after i explained wht it means. and in hk, we seldom use for example skin color to address foreigners, we just use “foreigners” or simply gweilo
of course there are labels foreigners dont like but most of them have no rude meanings and even the ppl who said it didnt know where it comes from
so that’s why i think when ppl talk abt race it represents a different sets of values and we dont have this kind of thinking actually
also i’m a bit confused here, if i have a frd from uk and i said you must like to drink a lot, does that mean im a racist?
shing: “abt domestic helpers…i’ve…laernt a bit their difficult life back home, and i’ve also known families who are victims of stealth or whose sons/daughters being abused…if you have read the news today then you’d know. a domestic helper who knows her contract is ended fed the family’s baby with diluted chlorine water. that’s the risk im talking and thats the risk my boss (principal) wont have to get if my boss fired me.”
This is getting bizarre. There’s hardly an epidemic of maids poisoning their employers, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that domestic workers are treated badly in the city.
“go ask the working class and i bet 90% responded that the boss treated them like dogs…its a character of hk”
I’ve no idea why you feel the need to point this out to me as one of my earlier comments to wooddoo was: “The generally rude treatment that mainlanders receive is no different than the treatment that economically poor HKers receive.”
“hthe truth is that every police has a certain “quota” to meet and sometimes they have specific target groups irrelevant of local/foreign…it is quite understandable: a hongkee looking person has a lower chance that he/she not being able to produce a valid id”
So what’s your explanation for the fact the local police almost never stop white people? There are probably more illegally resident westerners in HK than south/south east Asians but the police aren’t interested.
“i am not denying occurence of racism, im just trying to point out that sometimes things arnt the way they look”
What you’re trying to do is redefine the concept of racism to the point where it has no meaning. Sometimes, as in the case of HK’s treatment of those with darker skin, things are exactly as they look.
“and things are improving”
Quite the reverse. As local sentiment becomes more nationalistic the levels of racism increase.
@ Barny Chan
Thank you for your response (I didn’t read your conversation with other bloggers though).
I think you’re right to a great extent. HKers’ discrimination against mainlanders are like some (or a lot) Chinese looking down upon people from Henan. So I think that’s what some Chinese bloggers are trying to suggest that discrimination based on regions is the most severe in China, so severe that people think racism against other races (still an invisible presence in most parts of China) is not a problem at all. They should start paying attention because more and more foreigners are coming here.
The other day I had a talk with the wife of one of my colleagues. He’s a Chinese Australian and she was born in Beijing and then emigrated. She had nothing good to say about HK with all her charges that HKers were extremely contemptuous of mainlanders, but her husband didn’t think so (or he was more outspoken than his wife). Of course she got that impression from a decade ago and I think it’s getting better these days, with mainland shoppers flooding the city with their money (I maxed out one of my credit cards and I’m a thrift shopper) and HKers are learning how to treat them as equals.
Correction:he was less outspoken.
1) helpers and employer/ee — i wanted to say its more job-related rather race-related
2) well i guess geographically it takes quite a long journey and more difficult access for a white person to illegaly coming to hk as we are not surrounded by any white country… i mean there isnt any convenient way like by road right?
also their english are not as good as they should
3) well i think you can keep pointing out incidences and i may be able to suggest a different story underneath some of them, but as i’ve said i’ve no intention to deny the existence of racism but i think there’s considerable argument at the extent of it as i myself is the first time to involve in this kind of discussion, so i partially agrees with heicaitou’s church kid example
i got some questions also:
A) is being conservative racism? like my mom doesnt want me to marry a westerner
B) if i doesnt like the habbit of a certain “race” is that racism?
C) once i’ve talked to sai kung taxi driver and he told me if i were to call the police in sai kung i’d better talk in english becoz they’ll come faster. i asked him why and he said usually the “gweilos” will complain if the police arrive late and if they call usually it’s really serious case. is there racism?
i’m not challenging you or forcing you to believe my side of story but i really like to know what other people thinks
also if you dont mind i want to know how’d you develop this perception? you live in hk?
also i browsed through some other sites and one of the definition i’ve found is:
Racism, by definition on Merriam-Webster, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
in hk, we have discrimination, but not racism
afterall, we hongkees are no “race” at all :(
@Chris Hearne
It is a common phenomenon in the US, another example is Halle Berry. I think by law if you have 1/16 of minority blood then you are considered a minority, my old boss who is part native American once told me.
@AndyR
Come on, we all know we are talking about state-sponsored institutionalized slavery of a particular race here, which never existed in Chinese history. And based on his post, that’s what Hecaitou meant.
Picking on impreciseness in one’s wording and ignoring the main message is disingenuous.
Oh Chris, I guess I wasn’t very precise when I mentioned biracial acceptance, sorry. Of course I was referring to acceptance of mainstream culture and politics.
@asdfdsf
You are changing your tune, are you not?
Previously you stated quite baldly that “we got rid of it (slavery) at least 2000 years ago”.
Well, that just isn’t true, so now we find that you actually meant “state-sponsored institutionalized slavery of a particular race” (while bemoaning the disingenuous arguments of others, which I found amusing).
Well, history is full of examples of subjugated races being bound into slavery, and yes, China is no exception.
In addition, it is possible that you are not aware of Chinese traders participating in the slave trade in Somalia as far back as the Ninth Century. I presume that they were not selling Han Chinese into slavery in East Africa, though again, I could be wrong, and look forward to your correction.
Now, it is true that China never practised institutionalised slavery based SOLELY on A particular race, but then again, very few societies have. In fact, the only one I can think of is the US (and let’s not forget Dr. Johnson: “How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?”).
Not quite as black and white an issue as one may have thought. Perhaps the best we can say is “China never took part in the Atlantic slave trade”, but it doesn’t have quite the same sheen, does it?
@ asdfdsf
You mentioned that “white” and “Irish” people have failed to accept Obama as one of their own, although if you had read or watched anything regarding the recent St. Patrick’s Day celebrations in Washington you would have seen Obama be presented with Birth Certificates proving his Irish ancestry from the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) as well as an open invitation to visit Ireland. Irish people have great support for Obama and are excited that he has a genealogical connection with the country.It seems therefore, unusual for you to single out the Irish race as a perceived barrier to racial equality. If you are referring however to “white” Americans as generally not accepting Obama you would be wise to remember that “white” denotes many different ethnicities and in a country as diverse as the United States it is less than helpful to use such terms.
To weigh in on the discussion, having lived in China for several years I have found the Chinese to be overwhelmingly welcoming and friendly but subject to a tendency to stereotype and generalise those from abroad which is offensive at times. I think however these tendencies come from a lack of awareness of other cultures and is improving with advancements in education. China is growing and evolving at such a fast pace that undoubtedly these issues surrounding racial sensitivity will be addressed and positive changes made.
@Macanluadoir
Sorry I wasn’t being precise, my fault. I should have known that some people would pick on it and try to sidetrack the discussion into whether there is slavery in China while this post is about “Chinese racism.”
I didn’t know that some Chinese traders traded slaves in Somalia in the 9th century and an ambassador from Java gave the Chinese emperor two slaves as gifts qualify Chinese slavery. That’s a bit of a stretch I think.
“Now, it is true that China never practised institutionalised slavery based SOLELY on A particular race, but then again, very few societies have. In fact, the only one I can think of is the US (and let’s not forget Dr. Johnson: “How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?”).”
That’s exactly Hecaitou’s point, Americans are the least qualified people to give moral lectures on racism.
@Sha
Thanks for the tip, and I agree with you by and large. And no, I wasn’t aware of fact that Obama was presented with Birth Certificates by the Irish prime minister.
Of course I know the American society is diverse and that a lot of progress have been made as far as racial relations in the US since the dark days. I just don’t understand why Obama is considered “African” American by the mainstream society in America and I was hoping somebody can educate me on this.
@asdfdsf
I’m not American or a race relations expert but my assumption is that Obama’s African ethnicity is promoted more than his “white” ethnicity as a great many ethnic groups in America, particularly the African American community have never felt represented fully by their political leaders and are now feeling a renewed connection to their country and government. You’ll notice Obama played down the race issue during his presidential campaign preferring to focus on the political issues at hand but the joy that was expressed by so many in America on his election was based on a feeling of a new era of representation and opportunity for all, which is something Obama embodies for them.
The fact that Obama is considered African-American is more representative of the African-American communities pride in him and desire to celebrate that part of his ethnicity rather than a “white” attempt to denigrate him.
Custer,
Check out the replies on 和菜头’s website by 北京棋迷 and Wallerstein – very thoughtful and balanced. These are 我辈中人 (my kind of people).
Unfortunately I just don’t think 和菜头 gets it at all.
Here’s my perspective:
Combine:
-1 portion of post-colonial complex/insecurity
-1 portion of “apology-is-for-the-weak” mentality
-1 portion of “see-no-evil-hear-no-evil” mentality
-1 portion of resentment for the US that originates from US government’s hypocritical/holier-than-thou ways
-mix with
and you quickly find yourself in a unilateral shouting match with a highly defensive (yet oblivious) person who’s no longer discussing the issue at hand but dragging in a full host of completely unrelated issues/subjects.
@ pc, yeah, I agree, there’s clearly a bit of 死不认错 going around, at least I would argue there is, but at least it’s interesting.
@asdfdsf
In addition to what Sha said (which is 100% correct), there’s also the simple fact that Obama has dark skin and nappy hair. Nappy hair especially is one of the defining differences between white and black in America. I’ve seen many, many instances of extremely light skinned people with nappy hair and all parties agree to define that person as black just because of his hair.
@asdfdsf
Also, forgot to mention before that although America has a dark history of racism, the fact is that America has done quite a bit to repent for that. Years of government efforts to recover from such a past has done quite a bit in that regard. My mother, for example, was 6 years old when the Civil Rights Act was passed. Given that for most of American youth, it was only their grandparents who took part in and possibly endorsed government sponsored racism, I believe the modern American youth shouldn’t be thought of as being the same people that their grandparents were or having the same ideas. Not to mention that, for me anyway (and I suspect the rest of the foreigners here), none of this was ever about lecturing China but rather about warning China not to make the same mistakes. Unfortunately, hecaitou seems to be too obtuse/insecure to understand that.
@ asdfdsf
Actually, you were very precise. You just happened to be wrong.
You were wrong when you said China ended slavery 2000 years ago. But we’ll let it slip: all friends here, boss.
You were wrong when you said China never slaved based on race. But we’ll let that one by too: all friends here.
But you continue to tread this broad path of error if you attempt to characterise my comments as an effort to sidetrack this thread. “We never slaved Africans” is one of the defences made against allegations of Chinese racism, and is certainly worthy of investigation and discussion. As it happens, it’s wrong too, as the Chinese did take part in the slave trade in Somalia and East Africa, as part of Chinese trading up to the Middle Ages.
And in response to your final point: racism is, paradoxically, non-racist insofar as it can propagate in any individual or group, regardless of colour, creed, borders or history. None are immune to it, all can be affected by it, and Americans have as much right to discuss, debate and moralise on this issue as anybody else.
And no, before you ask, I am not American.
This is not meant to generalize or offend anyone, and if anyone is offended, please note that this is posted just as an attempt to add to the discussion and not necessarily to say that I agree with everything being said in the posting below (see, I’m starting off with a disclaimer AND an apology), but in my humble opinion, the outlook of C. Custer’s two posts on race is a wonderful example of the phenomenon documented at stuffwhitepeoplelike.com #101 “Being Offended”. It’s short so (with apologies) I will excerpt it here in full:
*********BEGIN QUOTE**********
“#101 Being Offended
May 28, 2008 by clander
To be offended is usually a rather unpleasant experience, one that can expose a person to intolerance, cultural misunderstandings, and even evoke the scars of the past. This is such an unpleasant experience that many people develop a thick skin and try to only be offended in the most egregious and awful situations. In many circumstances, they can allow smaller offenses to slip by as fighting them is a waste of time and energy. But white people, blessed with both time and energy, are not these kind of people. In fact there are few things white people love more than being offended.
Naturally, white people do not get offended by statements directed at white people. In fact, they don’t even have a problem making offensive statements about other white people (ask a white person about “flyover states”). As a rule, white people strongly prefer to get offended on behalf of other people.
It is also valuable to know that white people spend a significant portion of their time preparing for the moment when they will be offended. They read magazines, books, and watch documentaries all in hopes that one day they will encounter a person who will say something offensive. When this happens, they can leap into action with quotes, statistics, and historical examples. Once they have finished lecturing another white person about how it’s wrong to use the term “black” instead of “African-American,” they can sit back and relax in the knowledge that they have made a difference.
White people also get excited at the opportunity to be offended at things that are sexist and/or homophobic. Both cases offering ample opportunities for lectures, complaints, graduate classes, lengthy discussions and workshops. All of which do an excellent job of raising awareness among white people who hope to change their status from “not racist” to “super not racist.”
Another thing worth noting is that the threshold for being offended is a very important tool for judging and ranking white people. Missing an opportunity to be outraged is like missing a reference to Derrida-it’s social death.
If you ever need to make a white person feel indebted to you, wait for them to mention a book, film, or television show that features a character who is the same race as you, then say “the representation of was offensive and if you can’t see that, well, you need to do some soul searching.” After they return from their hastily booked trip to land of your ancestors, they will be desperate to make it up to you. At this point, it is acceptable to ask them to help you paint your house.”
*********END QUOTE***********
The website stuffwhitepeoplelike.com is actually quite funny to me, but it’s likely that that many Chinese in China will find it difficult to understand the humor because “white people” (as depicted on the site) is such a wacky and impenetrable culture with its own bizarre logic. It may be useful for Hecaitou to take a look, as it helps to understand a lot about the characteristics of the english China blogs.
Now, just to make it clear to everyone, this posting is not intended to be offensive to actual white people. In fact, the “White People” referred to in this posting do not have to actually be racially white (whatever that category means), and could be of any race. The characteristics depicted at stuffwhitepeoplelike.com is more of a character type, people of any race or ethnicity who happen to have been educated and socialized in the U.S. among lots of actual white people in elite or aspiring to be elite educational institutions and who have aspirations of being part of “the better half of America”. In time, they (or we) hope and assume that everyone in the world of every race or color, will think like us, once they learn to see things the way we do. And then the world will be a happier, more enlightened place.
C. Custer no doubt comes out of that culture. I haven’t studied his other posts, but I suspect reading them one would be able to figure out how that he would probably score high on the List of Stuff White People Like, such as:
#72 Study Abroad
#71 Being the Only White Person Around
#55 Apologies
#20 Being an expert on YOUR culture
#18 Awareness
And…at the risk of being presumptuous and no doubt provocative….
…..#11 Asian Girls
The full list is here:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/full-list-of-stuff-white-people-like/
Unfortunately, he committed a cross-cultural goof. He was trying to enlighten English speakers (and perhaps warn English-speaking Chinese? As he said, this is an English blog about China) about the perils of Chinese racism towards Africans, but he miscalculated.
Chinese in China like Hecaitou (in general) who read this are not like “white people” (as per stuffwhitepeoplelike.com) when it comes to being enlightened in this manner, because they are not “white people who hope to change their status from “not racist” to “super not racist.””
What C. Custer wants to do only works with people who may be racially Chinese but have spent enough time being educated and socialized in the manner of the people depicted on “stuffwhitepeoplelike.com” (like on American university campuses or studying English) who will listen and say, “oh yeah, that’s so racist…China can be so racist, it really needs to change. Oh, you Americans so sensitive and aware. That’s what’s so incredible, you Americans really care about other people. It’s sad China cannot be more like that.”
To which C. Custer would blush modestly with a quick laugh and say, “well, we Americans went through this too, and it took a civil war and the civil rights protests to change our way of thinking, so we’ve learned from the experience. That’s the beauty of our democracy. China will get there someday.” And he would feel good inside, knowing he had helped to advance social progress by spreading understanding.
Hecaitou and other Chinese got riled up when they read C. Custer’s post because it sounded to them like an accusation that Chinese have a problem with a latent tendency to string up Africans.
And when C. Custer gets their reaction, he apologizes (see stuffwhitepeoplelike #55 Apologies), but for the life of him, he cannot comprehend why Hecaitou and other Chinese do not want to think like he does.
C. Custer’s reaction can be explained by stuffwhitepeoplelike.com #18 Awareness:
*******BEGIN QUOTE*********
#18 Awareness
January 23, 2008 by clander
An interesting fact about white people is that they firmly believe that all of the world’s problems can be solved through “awareness.” Meaning the process of making other people aware of problems, and then magically someone else like the government will fix it.
This belief allows them to feel that sweet self-satisfaction without actually having to solve anything or face any difficult challenges. Because, the only challenge of raising awareness is people not being aware. In a worst case scenario, if you fail someone doesn’t know about the problem. End of story.
What makes this even more appealing for white people is that you can raise “awareness” through expensive dinners, parties, marathons, selling t-shirts, fashion shows, concerts, eating at restaurants and bracelets. In other words, white people just have to keep doing stuff they like, EXCEPT now they can feel better about making a difference.
Raising awareness is also awesome because once you raise awareness to an acceptable, aribtrary level, you can just back off and say “Bam! did my part. Now it’s your turn. Fix it.”
So to summarize – you get all the benefits of helping (self satisfaction, telling other people) but no need for difficult decisions or the ensuing criticism (how do you criticize awareness?). Once again, white people find a way to score that sweet double victory.
Popular things to be aware of: The Environment, Diseases like Cancer and AIDS, Africa, Poverty, Anorexia, Homophobia, Midde School Field Hockey/Lacrosse teams, Drug Rehab, and political prisoners.”
*********END QUOTE**********
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/23/18-awareness/
(Note Africa on the list of Popular Things to be aware of)
Clearly a cross-cultural minefield for misunderstanding.
A last disclosure note: I’m guilty of many of the very traits documented on stuffwhitepeoplelike….but I’m aware of it.
@ perspectivehere: Well, I can see that after reading a full two posts–or, should I say, skimming them–you’ve got me all figured out. A few notes to consider, though, before you finalize the advertisement and send it to SWPL for approval:
1) I never apologized for anything, nor will I. I did attempt to clarify my point and my purpose for writing the posts, but there is no apology anywhere in there because I have nothing to apologize for.
2) Regarding the matter of whether or not I’m into “asian girls”, I have but this to say: Go fuck yourself. That violates our comment policy here at ChinaGeeks, but luckily, I’m the only person who polices the site, and it needed to be said.
You don’t know me, you clearly don’t understand how I think on this issue, and you couldn’t even be bothered to read the post closely enough to notice there’s no apology there. You presume to know how I respond to things even though you admittedly haven’t read any other posts here. The idea that I’d ever utter the sentence “That’s the beauty of our democracy” (for example) is completely laughable, but obviously you didn’t bother to look into it at all (if you did, you’d see that I’ve been accused of being a CCP hack by commenters on this site on more than one occasion).
I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, nor would I deny that I like lots of things on Stuff White People Like, but if you’re going to presume to speak for me or explain why I think the things I do, please read the posts more carefully, and maybe even go check out a few others just to be sure.
Thanks for playing, though.
f anyone can tell me ‘why am i idiot 脑残? 洗耳恭听
to pffefer 大 and Wu大，can you tear down,pls? Don’t afraid to lost face in foreign country where you are live, no one know u in internet.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for Hecaitou’s point of view (I also feel many of the observations in Stuff White People Like are spot-on). But he is inconsistent. On the one hand his advice to a hypothetical black person who takes offence is to ignore it or laugh it off, realise that people don’t necessarily mean what you think they mean etc. But having taken offence himself at being linked with racism, he doesn’t want to follow his own advice. Anyway, it certainly won’t be the last time the topic of racism in China comes up. Saying “when in Rome” is irrelevant, what is said today in China is heard and commented on around the world. That goes with being a global power.
Peter, I liked your comment in regards to “when in Rome”, as the Romans definitely didn’t have blogs that could be read from computers all around the world.
[...] first caught my attention about a month ago when Charles Custer, the founder, sparred with the notable but wily Chinese blogger Hecaitou over the issue of Racism in China. I’ve [...]
[...] discussed the question of racism before here, most memorably last spring, when we accidentally touched off a bit of controversy and earned [...]